I have 15 health and 0 Defense.
You have 13 Health and 2 Defense.
My 15 health counts towards your Score.
Your 13 Health counts towards my Score, but your 2 Defense doesn't.
If we both get +3 to defense through cards, you still have +2 defense than I do, and those extra 2 defense don't count towards my score, but my extra 2 health count towards yours.

It's unbalanced.

If, however, I do 15 damage, and you do 15 damage as well, then I have an advantage in terms of character and it's not exactly a balanced scenario.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (24-08-2012 02:18:27)

goscar · 24-08-2012 02:25:44

Okay you are just speculating and using the worst case scenario. And who says you will not get a better overkill just because you have higher health?

Also Desert Nomads have a lot of ways of healing and defensive cards.

Your problem is that defense stops you from getting points and that Nomads barely have any.

You should change your argument to say defense shouldn't do a common sense thing.

Dernière modification par goscar (24-08-2012 02:27:34)

Nurvus · 24-08-2012 02:35:54

You are making no sense at all...

Forget Nomads.

Any health difference matters.
The defense can even be the same. Doesn't matter.
Any advantage you have to compensate your lower health will not count towards my score, but my extrea health will count towards yours.

If I have +2 health than you, and take as much damage as you, it's not a balanced fight.
If I have +2 health than you, and take +2 damage than you at the end of the game, it's a balanced fight, but I lose in Score.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (24-08-2012 02:42:28)

goscar · 24-08-2012 03:32:27

If I have +2 health than you, and take as much damage as you, it's not a balanced fight.

15 Health and 13 Health both take 13 damage. You win because you out tanked me.

15 Health and 13 Health both take 15 damage. We draw for doing same amount.

If I have +2 health than you, and take +2 damage than you at the end of the game, it's a balanced fight, but I lose in Score.

15 Health and 13 Health you take 15 and I take 13 damage. I win because I out damaged you.

If we take do your idea on scores I will still lose in first match (even in the situation of the draw) and draw on second match (even though I won by out damaged you).

Again your problem is that defense takes away points from you.

Nurvus a écrit :

- Two characters, one Desert Nomad and one Kotoba
- After cards are played, the Desert Nomad has 16 Attack, 0 Defense and 16 health
- After cards are played, the Kotoba has 16 Attack, 3 Defense and 13 health
- Both die and end up with 0 Health. This is balanced.
- At the end Kotoba wins with a Score of 16 versus the Desert Nomad's Score of 13.This is unbalanced.

You see in your scenario if we took away his 3 defense, he would have had -3 HP and drawn. The problem wasn't that you had more HP the problem was he had a way to prevent you from out damaging him.

Nurvus a écrit :

Dude, are you high?
I have more health.
You have more defense.
My extra health is added to your score.
Your extra defense is NOT added to my score.
Sollution, add MY printed health to MY score and YOUR printed health to YOUR score. This is balanced.
(Note: Adding defense, spirit or mitigated damage does NOT work and would be unbalanced as well.)

In conclusion you just want an unwarranted buff to Nomads.

Dernière modification par goscar (24-08-2012 03:57:14)

Nurvus · 24-08-2012 13:07:23

goscar a écrit :

You see in your scenario if we took away his 3 defense, he would have had -3 HP and drawn. The problem wasn't that you had more HP the problem was he had a way to prevent you from out damaging him.

If I take away his 3 defense, I used at least one card to do that.
Most likely than not, I had to use a total of 3 "Under the Sun" across the various fights.
But the opponent can also play cards. Did you know that?
Permanent removal, defense increase, whatever.

Again you're distorting things in order to do what you mostly do - try to antagonize everything.

You are being very narrow-minded.

The issue I'm indicating supercedes all card effects.
It's a matter of bad math in Score calculation, that causes players with higher printed health totals to have a disadvantage.

goscar a écrit :

Nurvus a écrit :
I have more health.
You have more defense.
My extra health is added to your score.
Your extra defense is NOT added to my score.
Sollution, add MY printed health to MY score and YOUR printed health to YOUR score. This is balanced.
(Note: Adding defense, spirit or mitigated damage does NOT work and would be unbalanced as well.)
In conclusion you just want an unwarranted buff to Nomads.

So you bold the part that is convenient to you and ignore the rest?
Awesome.

The fact my "extra 3 health" is added to your score after you did 16-0=16 damage, but your "extra 3 defense" is NOT added to my score after I did 16-3=13 damage is not unbalanced to you.

You're funny.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (24-08-2012 13:08:55)

Sapphon · 24-08-2012 13:41:21

Nurvus a écrit :

My suggestion is simple:
Add the total Printed Health of your characters to your own Score.
There, fixed.
How hard is it to implement this?

I don't really know, but I'll talk about it. Seems to me it's a good idea.

goscar · 24-08-2012 16:11:11

Nurvus a écrit :

Nurvus a écrit :
(Note: Adding defense, spirit or mitigated damage does NOT work and would be unbalanced as well.)
The fact my "extra 3 health" is added to your score after you did 16-0=16 damage, but your "extra 3 defense" is NOT added to my score after I did 16-3=13 damage is not unbalanced to you.
You're funny.

Please stop contradicting yourself. You said it yourself any block damage (Mitigated) being added to the score would be unbalanced.

Nurvus · 24-08-2012 16:14:21

goscar a écrit :

Nurvus a écrit :
Nurvus a écrit :
(Note: Adding defense, spirit or mitigated damage does NOT work and would be unbalanced as well.)
The fact my "extra 3 health" is added to your score after you did 16-0=16 damage, but your "extra 3 defense" is NOT added to my score after I did 16-3=13 damage is not unbalanced to you.
You're funny.
Please stop contradicting yourself. You said it yourself any block damage (Mitigated) being added to the score would be unbalanced.

The fact my advantage is added to your score, but yours isn't added to mine, makes it unbalanced.
However, adding yours to my score would also be unbalanced because it's a different type and doesn't work in a linear fashion.

Adding the printed health of your characters to your score, evens out the unbalance at the end of the game, without causing any problems at all.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (24-08-2012 16:15:45)

goscar · 24-08-2012 16:29:48

Nurvus a écrit :

Adding the printed health of your characters to your score, evens out the unbalance at the end of the game, without causing any problems at all.

goscar a écrit :

If I have +2 health than you, and take as much damage as you, it's not a balanced fight.
15 Health and 13 Health both take 13 damage. You win because you out tanked me.
15 Health and 13 Health both take 15 damage. We draw for doing same amount.
If I have +2 health than you, and take +2 damage than you at the end of the game, it's a balanced fight, but I lose in Score.
15 Health and 13 Health you take 15 and I take 13 damage. I win because I out damaged you.
If we take do your idea on scores I will still lose in first match (even in the situation of the draw) and draw on second match (even though I won by out damaged you.

No problems at all, huh? Love how you ignore my example.

Nurvus · 24-08-2012 17:02:20

goscar a écrit :

Nurvus a écrit :
Adding the printed health of your characters to your score, evens out the unbalance at the end of the game, without causing any problems at all.
goscar a écrit :
If I have +2 health than you, and take as much damage as you, it's not a balanced fight.
15 Health and 13 Health both take 13 damage. You win because you out tanked me.
15 Health and 13 Health both take 15 damage. We draw for doing same amount.
If I have +2 health than you, and take +2 damage than you at the end of the game, it's a balanced fight, but I lose in Score.
15 Health and 13 Health you take 15 and I take 13 damage. I win because I out damaged you.
If we take do your idea on scores I will still lose in first match (even in the situation of the draw) and draw on second match (even though I won by out damaged you.
No problems at all, huh? Love how you ignore my example.

You are ignoring relativity.

After cards are played and effects are taken into account:
Character A: 15 health, 15 damage, 1 defense
Character B: 13 health, 16 damage, 2 defense
or
Character A: 15 health, 15 damage, 2 defense
Character B: 13 health, 17 damage, 2 defense

Both of the above are relatively balanced situation as far as the outcome of battle goes.

Note: I say relatively, because it only is balanced because the characters one-shot each other.
A character with extra mitigation will usually win against a character with extra health unless the difference between one's health and the other's mitigation is proportionate to the number of fights.
This is not, however, what I'm discussing here.
High health characters are good at preventing one-shots, but worse at dragged on fights, I'm not complaining about any of that.
All I'm discussing is Score.

When you get to the Score, Character A always loses for the simple fact that he had extra health, even though the fight was supposedly a draw in terms of outcome (both ended up with 0 Health).

Having the "advantage" of defense, or attack, or spirit, or damage reduction does not benefit your opponent in score.
Having the "advantage" of Health does. This is unbalanced in terms of Score.

As far as Score goes, a character that has very low health, but reduces damage taken has a huge advantage over a character that has high health but barely reduces any of the damage taken.

In terms of actual gameplay advantage or disadvantage, that's a matter of balance.
This thread is about a matter of bad math in Score calculations.

Your "because I tanked you better" is irrelevant, because you're talking about a situation where either one character is superior, or played stronger cards, either of wich is not a balanced situation that can be use for a comparison in this topic.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (24-08-2012 17:11:23)

goscar · 24-08-2012 20:11:53

No when you get down to it Character A lost because he dealt less damage not for having higher health in the first fight. You think in the case both character reaching 0 hp the one with higher hp is at fault for losing yet completely overlook the fact that one character did more damage. You believe it should be a draw simple for the fact they both die with 0 hp.

Edit:
Allow me to make you rethink your argument. Your saying that if both [card]Sol'ra Avatar[/card] and [card]The Duelist[/card] reach 0 HP it should be a draw instead of [card]The Duelist[/card] winning. Simply because Sol'ra Avatar has higher health and that is a great disadvantage.

Dernière modification par goscar (24-08-2012 20:49:39)

Nurvus · 24-08-2012 21:48:43

goscar a écrit :

No when you get down to it Character A lost because he dealt less damage not for having higher health in the first fight. You think in the case both character reaching 0 hp the one with higher hp is at fault for losing yet completely overlook the fact that one character did more damage. You believe it should be a draw simple for the fact they both die with 0 hp.
Edit:
Allow me to make you rethink your argument. Your saying that if both [card]Sol'ra Avatar[/card] and [card]The Duelist[/card] reach 0 HP it should be a draw instead of [card]The Duelist[/card] winning. Simply because Sol'ra Avatar has higher health and that is a great disadvantage.

See, that question just proves you are not even bothering.
Since when does Sol'ra Avatar even have a chance to accidentally die to The Duelist?

The only examples that support your point of view are those between 2 unfairly matched characters.

Assuming a fight between 2 fairly matched characters that results in both going from 100% to 0 hp - again, assuming they are fairly matched - it should be a draw.

Doesn't matter how they reached 0 hp as long as it was due to damage.

And it's not just about defense vs health variations.

A character with lower health, same defense, same spirit and same attack can be balanced with a character with higher health depending on abilities, cards he has access to, etc.

What matters is, if at the end of a fight both killed each other, but one is penalized for having more health, it's unbalanced.

Exampe #1:
A - 12 atk, 0 def, 15 health
B - 15 atk, 0 def, 12 health

Example #2:
A - 15 atk, 0 def, 15 health
B - 15 atk, 3 def, 12 health

Example #3
A - 12 atk, 2 def, 15 health
B - 17 atk, 0 def, 12 health

Any of the above examples is the case of 2 fairly matched characters killing each other, however, when it gets down to the score, character A always loses because he is balanced around having higher health.

Not all characters are balanced around how much damage they can reduce.
Some characters just take more damage but have higher health.

This is where the Score is unbalanced, because such characters are at disadvantage in Score even if they are balanced in game.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (24-08-2012 21:53:30)

Damncaster · 25-08-2012 01:03:48

Not bad Nurvus but we must agree to disagree here xD

Those only happen in a WCS (Worst Case Scenario) u can´t kill a nomad in one hit that easly unless it´s a noob using low lvl characters or u´re using a screw deck like Admiral with 2 scrolls at once, elfine or pocket shooters. So if ***bip*** not in those situations wich don´t happen quite often u can heal and u take damage twice so... it´s quite bout luck and experience to deal with that kind of situations.

Nurvus · 25-08-2012 02:28:39

Damncaster a écrit :

Not bad Nurvus but we must agree to disagree here xD
Those only happen in a WCS (Worst Case Scenario) u can´t kill a nomad in one hit that easly unless it´s a noob using low lvl characters or u´re using a screw deck like Admiral with 2 scrolls at once, elfine or pocket shooters. So if ***bip*** not in those situations wich don´t happen quite often u can heal and u take damage twice so... it´s quite bout luck and experience to deal with that kind of situations.

There's something very important you're missing.

Not only am I not talking only about OHKO scenarios, those are actually the "best case scenarios".
In multi-hit or multi-fight scenarios, my point is even stronger.

My suggested changes balance things out in terms of Score alone.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (25-08-2012 02:49:55)

Damncaster · 25-08-2012 14:59:41

It´s all about luck and the way you play nomads or the deck ***bip*** playing against

rutse · 25-08-2012 22:02:31

Sapphon a écrit :

Nurvus a écrit :
My suggestion is simple:
Add the total Printed Health of your characters to your own Score.
There, fixed.
How hard is it to implement this?
I don't really know, but I'll talk about it. Seems to me it's a good idea.

But isn't having high health enough advantage already against direct damage and magic damage decks?

Nurvus · 26-08-2012 00:59:16

There we go again... I'm not complaining about balance between characters.
That's a different issue.

I'm just saying that it's unfair that higher Health characters are penalized in terms of Score.

One thing is being harder or easier to kill.
But if 2 characters face each other, and reach the same amount of health (0, 5, -5, doesn't matter) through damage, the Score should result in a Draw.
Instead it always results in a loss to the character with more printed Health.

Let's take this example, since you are insisting in damage types and whatnot...

Imagine these characters with:
Character A - 1 spirit, 15 attack, 1 defense, 13 Health and -1 to damage received
Character B - 1 spirit, 15 attack, 1 defense, 14 health
Character A able to survive as well as B against any kind of damage dealt in 1 turn, but survives better than B from the 2nd turn and onward.
Now imagine that:
They both attack each other and end up with the same amount of health (can be 0, 3, 2, -3, doesn't matter) - let's assume -2.
Player A gets 16 score and player B gets 15 score.
Player B loses because character B has more printed Health.

It's unbalanced.

Another example:

Character C - 1 spirit, 10 attack, 0 defense 15 health, -1 to damage received
Character D - 1 spirit, 6 attack, 0 defense, 30 health
Character E - 1 spirit, 6 attack, 5 defense, 15 health
After 3 fights, C vs D or C vs E would result in both characters dead with 0 health.
However, while C vs E results in a Draw, C vs D results in a loss for player B.
Why? Because character B focuses on health instead of defense.

Now you say:
No, player B lost because character A dealt more damage.
Well he dealt more damage because character B is balanced around withstanding damage rather than reducing it, and that is fine in terms of gameplay, but it is poorly calculated into Score, resulting in an unfair disadvantage to characters that focus on health instead of other defensive stats.
Character A's defense is 13 health +1 defense +1 damage reduction
Character B's defense is 14 health +1 defense
Character B's extra 1 point of health counts towards player A's Score, but Character A's damage reduction doesn't count towards player B's Score.
Same goes with defense, and spirit.

Because of that, the perfect sollution - yes, perfect because it has NO side effects - is to add to each player's Score his own characters' PRINTED health.

This way, the characters that are more into health than other stats are not penalized in Score.

If all characters have different defenses, spirits, damage reduction, or lack of, and healths, at the end of the game if they all end up with the same amount of health (positive or negative), the player with highest printed health total loses.

You are not penalized for having more attack, spirit, defense or damage reduction.
But you are penalized for having more Health.
That is unbalanced.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (26-08-2012 12:55:59)

Nessaj · 26-08-2012 03:00:36

I think it would be better something like this:

In the end of the fight (if all characters have died) , the player who has the most negative points lose.

Example, if both characters have 0 health (like your example) it's a draw. If I had my characters like -1, -5 and -8 = -14 and my opponent 0, -5 and -5 = -10, he wins.

Damncaster · 26-08-2012 05:05:32

I got it bud BUT it´s like u say it should only happen when they all get to 0 and i´m starting to think this is something eassy to implement.

Player one - 16 + 16 + 15 = 47

Player two - 13 + 14 + 15 = 42

If all get to 0 player one scores 42 and player two scores 47 but if we add the characters printed health score to our score we get:

Player one - 47 + 42 = 89

Player two - 42 + 47 = 89

IT´S A DRAW

Nurvus · 26-08-2012 12:50:58

Damncaster a écrit :

I got it bud BUT it´s like u say it should only happen when they all get to 0 and i´m starting to think this is something eassy to implement.

The change is valid in all situations.
I just gave examples where everyone ends up with the same amount of health (0, 2, or 3, or 5, or -10, doesn't matter), to make it clear what I am talking about.
But even in situations where the health doesn't end up equal for everyone, the disadvantage higher health characters have still remains.

Note: some characters are just outright overpowered or underpowered, I am not talking about those, that's a in-game balance issue.

Damncaster a écrit :

Player one - 16 + 16 + 15 = 47
Player two - 13 + 14 + 15 = 42
If all get to 0 player one scores 42 and player two scores 47 but if we add the characters printed health score to our score we get:
Player one - 47 + 42 = 89
Player two - 42 + 47 = 89
IT´S A DRAW

That's exactly what I'm saying.

The point being that having a character balanced around higher health shouldn't mean being penalized in Score, thus adding total printed health to your own Score, and voila, fixed.

Nessaj a écrit :

I think it would be better something like this:
In the end of the fight (if all characters have died) , the player who has the most negative points lose.

Example, if both characters have 0 health (like your example) it's a draw. If I had my characters like -1, -5 and -8 = -14 and my opponent 0, -5 and -5 = -10, he wins.

What I am suggesting already naturally does this...

Dernière modification par Nurvus (26-08-2012 14:07:54)

Eredan's World

Annonce

#26 24-08-2012 02:17:11

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#27 24-08-2012 02:25:44

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#28 24-08-2012 02:35:54

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#29 24-08-2012 03:32:27

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#30 24-08-2012 13:07:23

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#31 24-08-2012 13:41:21

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#32 24-08-2012 16:11:11

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#33 24-08-2012 16:14:21

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#34 24-08-2012 16:29:48

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#35 24-08-2012 17:02:20

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#36 24-08-2012 20:11:53

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#37 24-08-2012 21:48:43

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#38 25-08-2012 01:03:48

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#39 25-08-2012 02:28:39

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#40 25-08-2012 14:59:41

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#41 25-08-2012 22:02:31

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#42 26-08-2012 00:59:16

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#43 26-08-2012 03:00:36

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#44 26-08-2012 05:05:32

Re : Printed Health vs Score

#45 26-08-2012 12:50:58

Re : Printed Health vs Score

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