Eredan's World

Nurvus · 26-04-2012 00:02:33

Okay, so I've been playing this deck in training room:
http://forum.eredan.com/viewtopic.php?id=41160

I'm doing the trophy to get Erevent, and the last 3 characters left unevolved are the ones I'm using:
- Prophet (Lv1)
- Aerouant (Lv3)
- Pilkim (Lv3)

Cards involved in the bug:

What IS working fine:
- Darkat does in fact affect the extra attack granted by Cerebral Crook (and it should, because it modifies Printed Attack)
I did 2x 12 damage with Prophet (3 Printed Spirit) who already had Cerebral Crook and Darkat (7/9 Printed Attack) equipped from previous Turns, and played Dark Light (discarded 3~4 cards for +4~5 Attack) & Magic Attack (opponent ended up with 0 defense).

- In the same Turn I play Darkat, it immediately affects my normal attack

What is NOT working fine:
- In the same Turn I play Darkat, it does NOT affect Cerebral Crook's extra attack (but it should, because Darkat activates immediately, and Cerebral Crook was already equipped since the previous Turn)

---
Would really like to see this bug fixed.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (26-04-2012 03:12:03)

Sapphon · 26-04-2012 11:05:44

I think it's the same problem that happens with Quick attacks and Brawl, and it's not a bug.
The fact is Quick Attacks are generated at the time the effects creating it is activated, and they don't check your character anymore. In game terms, it means :
Start of the turn : Cerebral crook activates its effects : it will give your character a Quick Attack with a value of X.
Darkat activates : it changes your character's attack.
The Quick Attack resolves, but it doesn't check the new attack. Your character deals X.

Quick Attacks are special because they don't behave like normal attacks at all. I intend to add their rules in the wiki as soon as I have some time to do it.

Calandra · 26-04-2012 12:19:28

Sapphon a écrit :

I think it's the same problem that happens with Quick attacks and Brawl, and it's not a bug.
The fact is Quick Attacks are generated at the time the effects creating it is activated, and they don't check your character anymore. In game terms, it means :
Start of the turn : Cerebral crook activates its effects : it will give your character a Quick Attack with a value of X.
Darkat activates : it changes your character's attack.
The Quick Attack resolves, but it doesn't check the new attack. Your character deals X.
Quick Attacks are special because they don't behave like normal attacks at all. I intend to add their rules in the wiki as soon as I have some time to do it.

does it mean that u re trying to make a rule out of a gameplay mistake instead of fixing it?

skadooosh · 26-04-2012 12:21:52

it ain't no error of gameplay. it's how it is supposed to work...
we had the same discussion in the french forum.
and In fact it's quite normal.
it's just that the effects applyes in the order of the activation of the cards...

Sapphon · 26-04-2012 12:30:35

Calandra a écrit :

does it mean that u re trying to make a rule out of a gameplay mistake instead of fixing it?

Just because you don't like a gameplay decision we made more than a year ago means that it was a mistake we don't want to fix now

Calandra · 26-04-2012 12:32:13

@ skadooosh
i really disagree... the staff says printed attack + printed spirit... if u play the staff and then change ure printed stats then it should be considered correctly by the system and take in the new values

making a rule out of this seems like sidestepping the problem...

@ sapphon
ye but why bringing up cards that interfere with the current program??? like demon may rise... do the programmers actually play the game? or the staff? i think u are so far away from the game that u somehow forgot how it is to bear all of these things

it shouldnt be that difficult to run a 'printed attack check' before the actual attack occurs... or simply move that check from battle starting phase to pre-physical-damage phase... maybe i m totally wrong and the changes i ask require too much... but making a rule seems like a totally wrong approach for me

Dernière modification par Calandra (26-04-2012 12:36:31)

Sapphon · 26-04-2012 13:02:27

Because it's the way they wanted it to work ?
You are assuming they made it a way and realised afterward there was a problem (like for Demon May Rise). Is it that hard to understand that it was made to work that way so you can't counter an already launched quick attack by reducing the base attack power ?

Nurvus · 26-04-2012 13:28:48

Sapphon a écrit :

Because it's the way they wanted it to work ?
You are assuming they made it a way and realised afterward there was a problem (like for Demon May Rise). Is it that hard to understand that it was made to work that way so you can't counter an already launched quick attack by reducing the base attack power ?

I was expecting this.

I am disappointed (not with you, Sapphon, big thanks for the replies )

The decent answer from Feerik's staff should be:

They said that when they designed the extra attack mechanics, they did not plan to create cards that change printed values, but now that they have, they plan on changing the checking of the effect to after the cards are played and just before the attacks are performed.

Except almost every "mechanical bug" comes with a reply from Feerik that one way or the other it is "working as intended", rather than "it was a mechanic created long ago, but due to recent cards we intend to change it".

How long will they keep going like this?
I know every bug fix and mechanic change requires code change, and that some require some work... so? Just do it...

Dernière modification par Nurvus (26-04-2012 13:32:01)

Sapphon · 26-04-2012 13:39:43

The thing is : Game Designers looked at the possibility of changing the quick attack mechanics when they introduced base attack changing cards. They decided not to because there are already many cards that can counter Sap Hearts' quick attacks, and a change in the mechanics would mean that a card like Brawl was a sure win against them.
So yeah : it works the way we want it to work, and we already thought about the other possibility.

Nurvus · 26-04-2012 14:16:43

I have a fix for all of that - and I mean, really.

- Change Brawl to "The opposing character has Attack -X where X equals his Printed Attack minus 0/1."

The result is the same, given the current mechanics.

Only Venerable Shulong and Shulong would benefit from this, since their attacks can be "set" but not "increased/decreased".

- Change the "additional attack" mechanics to check printed values after cards are played.

- Create a proper update for Quick Draw.

- Don't ever EVER make cards that reduce printed values.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (26-04-2012 14:19:07)

Sapphon · 26-04-2012 16:10:19

Nurvus a écrit :

I have a fix for all of that - and I mean, really.
- Change Brawl to "The opposing character has Attack -X where X equals his Printed Attack minus 0/1."
The result is the same, given the current mechanics.
Only Venerable Shulong and Shulong would benefit from this, since their attacks can be "set" but not "increased/decreased".
- Change the "additional attack" mechanics to check printed values after cards are played.
- Create a proper update for Quick Draw.
- Don't ever EVER make cards that reduce printed values.

So, if I sum up correctly, you want us to change a card that works just fine (and counter quite well Shulong and Crown of the Border giants) and rework an almost good mechanic so you can have between 3 or 4 more damage on one attack ? Am I right ?

Nurvus · 26-04-2012 16:26:31

[card]Brawl[/card] doesn't counter [card]crown of the border[/card] giants...
It only modifies printed attack. Meaning any bonuses still apply.

Brawl counter enemies who have high printed attack values.

My suggestion retains its functionality.

Or you can simply ignore my suggested change for Brawl, and just add proper cards for Quick Draw viability.
---

Using Quick Draw as an excuse to not make the mechanic work properly - from a common sense point of view - is sad

Sapphon · 26-04-2012 16:35:25

Nurvus a écrit :

Using Quick Draw as an excuse to not make the mechanic work properly - from a common sense point of view - is sad

Nah. From your point of view. Because you don't play Sap Heart or Shulong, and you would like to use it on your Cerebral Crook deck ;p
But I guess if we ask an Elfine player, he will find the current mechanic is working just fine, and has a lot of sense into it. It's a quick attack. So it's launched at the moment you play the card or you activate the capacity. The fact that the attack is resolve with the normal attack is linked to the core of the game that doesn't allow physical attacks out of the attack sequence.

In fact, the true issue is that armor bonus/malus given after the attack is launched are effective. But it's been in here for too long. Changing it now would mean to rebalance many cards in the process.

Nurvus · 26-04-2012 16:55:29

Not really.
Whether elfine warriors or Shulong decks are competitive or not has NOTHING to do with Brawl.
Elfine warriors aren't competitive at the moment due to the ridiculous defense and damage reduction made available recently.
[card]Steel Body[/card], [card]Sens of Danger[/card], [card]Double Clay[/card], [card]Magic Servant[/card] and many other cards have made elfine warriors a joke.

I'd like every deck concept to be viable, because it makes the game fun and full of variety.

I'm not biased towards making my decks stronger.
Not a single one of my suggestions in these forums were made so that a certain favorite deck of mine becomes better than the rest.

I don't expect you to take my word for it, though.

I think it's a bad attitude to, instead of making mechanics universal, clean and intuitive, to base a whole design philosophy on a few characters and 1 card that counters them for 1 turn.
Note that this card only counters them if:
- They don't have [card]crown of the border[/card]
- They don't play [card]Above the Law[/card]
- They don't play [card]Lies[/card]
- They don't play [card]Obesity[/card]

I just want the mechanics of this game to be clean and intuitive, such that when a player thinks of a cool "out-of-the-box" combo, he doesn't just face a - in my view - senseless mechanical limitation.
---

Hey, here's another temporary fix:
Make Darkat, Piguy and Cutirrel, and any future printed value increasing cards "update" those additional attacks.
If the game doesn't check your new printed attack, make the card that changes the printed attack "manually update" that variable...

Sapphon a écrit :

But I guess if we ask an Elfine player, he will find the current mechanic is working just fine, and has a lot of sense into it. It's a quick attack. So it's launched at the moment you play the card or you activate the capacity. The fact that the attack is resolve with the normal attack is linked to the core of the game that doesn't allow physical attacks out of the attack sequence.

Nah.
[card]Quick Draw [/card]and Elfine warriors/[card]butterfly collar[/card] are all about multi-hits, not quick-hit.
Quick-hit is [card]Narwhal[/card].

Sapphon a écrit :

In fact, the true issue is that armor bonus/malus given after the attack is launched are effective. But it's been in here for too long. Changing it now would mean to rebalance many cards in the process.

Because Feerik spends alot of time balancing cards, hmm?
Honestly, let's see what I suggested...

I suggested that either:
a) Brawl affects extra attacks normally, and is a potential counter for elfine, shulong and a few others, who are in need of a buff regardless of Brawl's mechanic.
b) or Brawl is changed so that it doesn't modify printed value per se, but applies a similar penalty through attack reduction, not affecting shulong.

Result:
- Cards do what they say they do
- Creativity is rewarded
- Making "Multi-hit printed attack" decks competitive again does not depend on maintaining Brawl the way it is.

Feerik should design AND word Cards such that their effect matches exactly what we read, so that when we get creative, we get the expected result.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (26-04-2012 17:19:30)

PredatorArk · 20-08-2012 04:31:46

I was planing on opening a bug report over the Brawl card failing to stop the Elfine speed deck,but then i found this thread and apparently Feerik doing the worst solution i have thought of.

Santuros · 20-08-2012 05:36:44

PredatorArk a écrit :

I was planing on opening a bug report over the Brawl card failing to stop the Elfine speed deck,but then i found this thread and apparently Feerik doing the worst solution i have thought of.

Brawl cant, lol. They used their printed attack so its not a bug. At last with the info you are giving it doesn't sound like a bug

PredatorArk · 20-08-2012 07:07:06

Did you read the description? Brawl changes the Printed attack to 0/1 the additional attack value should be dropped to 0.As far as i know they should change the description so it isn't misleading people thinking it does.

p.s My last message wasn't a bug report i was sad it doesn't work as intended lol

Dernière modification par PredatorArk (20-08-2012 07:09:49)

Zurga · 20-08-2012 07:12:47

Basically it is a problem of order of activation.
We still are waiting for a definitive explanation on order of activation in all combat phases and sub-phases.
This will allow to define what is intended and was is not.

Actually brawl can block multi-attacks defined after brawl ([card]quick draw[/card] or [card]Briskness[/card]) if brawl is activated before.
But as characters are activated before others cards, this not block the default double attack.

PredatorArk · 20-08-2012 08:21:10

Zurga a écrit :

Basically it is a problem of order of activation.
We still are waiting for a definitive explanation on order of activation in all combat phases and sub-phases.
This will allow to define what is intended and was is not.
Actually brawl can block multi-attacks defined after brawl ([card]quick draw[/card] or [card]Briskness[/card]) if brawl is activated before.
But as characters are activated before others cards, this not block the default double attack.

Ah i understand if its around order of activation thank you Zurga.
Sorry if id spotlight-steal the intial argument.

Teremune · 21-08-2012 00:29:52

Nurvus a écrit :

Not really.
Whether elfine warriors or Shulong decks are competitive or not has NOTHING to do with Brawl.
Elfine warriors aren't competitive at the moment due to the ridiculous defense and damage reduction made available recently.
[card]Steel Body[/card], [card]Sens of Danger[/card], [card]Double Clay[/card], [card]Magic Servant[/card] and many other cards have made elfine warriors a joke.
I'd like every deck concept to be viable, because it makes the game fun and full of variety.
I'm not biased towards making my decks stronger.
Not a single one of my suggestions in these forums were made so that a certain favorite deck of mine becomes better than the rest.
I don't expect you to take my word for it, though.
I think it's a bad attitude to, instead of making mechanics universal, clean and intuitive, to base a whole design philosophy on a few characters and 1 card that counters them for 1 turn.
Note that this card only counters them if:
- They don't have [card]crown of the border[/card]
- They don't play [card]Above the Law[/card]
- They don't play [card]Lies[/card]
- They don't play [card]Obesity[/card]
I just want the mechanics of this game to be clean and intuitive, such that when a player thinks of a cool "out-of-the-box" combo, he doesn't just face a - in my view - senseless mechanical limitation.
---
Hey, here's another temporary fix:
Make Darkat, Piguy and Cutirrel, and any future printed value increasing cards "update" those additional attacks.
If the game doesn't check your new printed attack, make the card that changes the printed attack "manually update" that variable...
Sapphon a écrit :
But I guess if we ask an Elfine player, he will find the current mechanic is working just fine, and has a lot of sense into it. It's a quick attack. So it's launched at the moment you play the card or you activate the capacity. The fact that the attack is resolve with the normal attack is linked to the core of the game that doesn't allow physical attacks out of the attack sequence.
Nah.
[card]Quick Draw [/card]and Elfine warriors/[card]butterfly collar[/card] are all about multi-hits, not quick-hit.
Quick-hit is [card]Narwhal[/card].
Sapphon a écrit :
In fact, the true issue is that armor bonus/malus given after the attack is launched are effective. But it's been in here for too long. Changing it now would mean to rebalance many cards in the process.
Because Feerik spends alot of time balancing cards, hmm?
Honestly, let's see what I suggested...
I suggested that either:
a) Brawl affects extra attacks normally, and is a potential counter for elfine, shulong and a few others, who are in need of a buff regardless of Brawl's mechanic.
b) or Brawl is changed so that it doesn't modify printed value per se, but applies a similar penalty through attack reduction, not affecting shulong.
Result:
- Cards do what they say they do
- Creativity is rewarded
- Making "Multi-hit printed attack" decks competitive again does not depend on maintaining Brawl the way it is.
Feerik should design AND word Cards such that their effect matches exactly what we read, so that when we get creative, we get the expected result.

they should just delete all the "Printed" change cards, that would solve the issue!!! O.o
oh and give a new booster for each card they erase from each person as a sorry we messed up gift. >.> but yeah... or rewrite the cards in a way that won't confuse the player.

this whole thing explains a lot of things that i thought i just miscalculated...

Nurvus · 21-08-2012 01:11:55

The best sollution is the two of the following:
- Word cards better to indicate what they do better
- Separate cards that change Printed Values into two types: "Simple" and "Dynamic".

"Simple" would be what they all do now: They don't affect "quick hits" that are already "determined" beforehand.
By default, all would be Simple.

"Dynamic" would be cards that change your Printed Value AND RETROACTIVELY UPDATE ALL variables that use that Printed Value.

That way you could make Brawl "simple", and Darkat "Dynamic", such that the moment you play Darkat, any additional attacks previously determined are changed to the new Printed Value, yet Brawl would only affect attacks determined afterwards.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (21-08-2012 01:13:33)

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 26-04-2012 00:02:33

Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#2 26-04-2012 11:05:44

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#3 26-04-2012 12:19:28

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#4 26-04-2012 12:21:52

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#5 26-04-2012 12:30:35

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#6 26-04-2012 12:32:13

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#7 26-04-2012 13:02:27

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#8 26-04-2012 13:28:48

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#9 26-04-2012 13:39:43

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#10 26-04-2012 14:16:43

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#11 26-04-2012 16:10:19

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#12 26-04-2012 16:26:31

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#13 26-04-2012 16:35:25

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#14 26-04-2012 16:55:29

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#15 20-08-2012 04:31:46

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#16 20-08-2012 05:36:44

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#17 20-08-2012 07:07:06

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#18 20-08-2012 07:12:47

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#19 20-08-2012 08:21:10

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#20 21-08-2012 00:29:52

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

#21 21-08-2012 01:11:55

Re : Cerebral Crook & Darkat

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