Nurvus a écrit :
No character in the game should be useless or obsolete.
Then why not ask for them to make older, significantly more useless cards better? Like [card]Saphyra[/card] and [card]Aryhpas[/card]. Both terrible cards, easily worse than any Courtesan. Or maybe [card]Ryouken[/card]? Why not ask them for something to make him better? Maybe something to fuse him with to make a cool new Kotoba?

This is what I replied to.

All I said was: Sure, I agree with giving all cards usefulness. Go make a thread about that because this isn't the one for it.
This thread is about Courtesans.

Don't take it as a personal attack - it's not. Sorry if it seemed like one.
----

I'd like you to give me an example of how broken an idea it is.
Can you exemplify a combination of 3-guild Courts that would allow overpowered strategies?

I'd be excited to read about it.
---

As for story, story advances.
You should ask yourself, are the cards made based on the story? Or is in fact the story that is tailored to the cards?

Nothing stops Feerik from adding story that gives the Courts more influence. Specially when the hostile Nehantists are around, making it more necessary for other Guilds to group together to fight them, making it easier for Courts to create bonds between Guilds.

The background potential is all there. Easy and flexible.
---

If you delve further into the ramifications of the idea, maybe you'll realize it actually works.

If there's anything overpowered about this idea, it's not much, and it's only for now.
Very soon it won't be anymore.
Card releases are getting stronger and stronger - and nearly all of them are multi-card combos or very Caste-specific, neither of wich are interesting for Courts.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (08-08-2011 00:07:11)

MrLordi92 · 08-08-2011 00:16:26

Off the top of my head, I can't give you an example, I'll admit that. I'll admit my statement of a three guild Courtesan being broken is purely speculation and theory on my part. Leave it to crazy deck builders and living card encyclopedias to figure out a way to break it. Magic is my forte, not Eredan.

As for story, I was talking about slapping an additional guild onto existing cards rather than characters, IE making the Hasna we have now a pirate, too.

Actually, while I have that thought up in my head, that probably was my problem with a third guild, story wise. I wasn't sure if you meant update the Courts we have now or make new ones based off of the ones we have with a third guild. If they make new cards, then yeah, story-wise it makes sense.

Maybe Courtesans aren't meant to be competitive, like you want them to be. You seem to be thinking every card has to be good in ELO, or at least that's the vibe I'm getting. You're like one of my Magic friends who thinks if a card isn't good enough to be in a tournament winning deck it shouldn't have been printed, which isn't true.

Not everything is meant to be ELO playable, just like not every Magic card is supposed to be a game-winner.

Nurvus · 10-08-2011 22:24:54

I agree that ultimately not everything will be 100% competitive.

However, saying Courtesans aren't meant to be competitive is like saying Elves in a particular expansion of MtG were designed as fodder, not as competitive.

I'll agree not every possible combination of Elf-based MtG decks is liable to be competitive, but at least a couple decks based on Elves should be.

Designing cards to suck is stupid - period.
Designing cards to be competitive and eventually failing in a -few- cases - is acceptable.

Courtesans aren't "a few cases", they are the equivalent to a whole Race/Type (Elf, Soldier, etc) in MtG.

I'm not saying every combination of Courtesans should be viable.
I'm saying every Courtesan should be viable in a couple combos, and it should be the developer's goal to continuously -unlock- combos, rather than destroying them.

And Hasna doesn't have to be Pirate... I just gave an idea.
Could be Zil+Desert+Noz or Zil+Desert+Kotoba... whatever.

And last but not least, I've already admitted maybe -right now- isn't yet the best idea.
But if another Guild is added to the game, then a 3rd Guild must be added to Courtesans.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (10-08-2011 22:27:38)

MrLordi92 · 10-08-2011 22:46:40

Nurvus a écrit :

I agree that ultimately not everything will be 100% competitive.
However, saying Courtesans aren't meant to be competitive is like saying Elves in a particular expansion of MtG were designed as fodder, not as competitive.
I'll agree not every possible combination of Elf-based MtG decks is liable to be competitive, but at least a couple decks based on Elves should be.
Designing cards to suck is stupid - period.
Designing cards to be competitive and eventually failing in a -few- cases - is acceptable.
Courtesans aren't "a few cases", they are the equivalent to a whole Race/Type (Elf, Soldier, etc) in MtG.
I'm not saying every combination of Courtesans should be viable.
I'm saying every Courtesan should be viable in a couple combos, and it should be the developer's goal to continuously -unlock- combos, rather than destroying them.
And Hasna doesn't have to be Pirate... I just gave an idea.
Could be Zil+Desert+Noz or Zil+Desert+Kotoba... whatever.
And last but not least, I've already admitted maybe -right now- isn't yet the best idea.
But if another Guild is added to the game, then a 3rd Guild must be added to Courtesans.

Not really. The elf tribe in Magic has always been a powerful deck since the tribal theme was released. I can't think of a time when an elf deck hasn't been good.

I also don't think Feerik designed the Courtesans to suck. They came out almost a year ago, and back then they were amazing.

I was using Pirate as an example. I'm actually surprised you didn't catch that.

Nurvus · 10-08-2011 22:59:56

And I'm saying Courtesans are equivalent to a tribal theme.

Although not all, at least some combinations of any given released tribe in every expansion block were viable.

In MtGO, new cards are released mostly with the current expansion block in mind.
In Eredan, cards are released with all the past cards in mind.
Past themes can be continuously improved.
There is no need (and no excuse) to make cards obsolete in Eredan.

If the pointless nitpicking in some of the posts here is set aside, and the real issue is focused upon, you can see I talk about 4 distinct things:
- Current Situation (and it's problems)
- Desirable Goal
- Suggested means to achieve that goal
- Ramifications (pros and cons) of my suggestion

The current situation is obvious:
- Alot of Courtesan characters are simply not used, most are not competitive; and those that are competitive, don't reach too high in ELO.

The desirable goal is obvious:
- Making all characters in the game useful.
- Making as many decks as possible viable, even competitive.
- Make sure every character fits into at least 1 competitive deck.

My suggestion is quite simple:
- Add a third guild to each courtesan (except Ishaia) and possibly update Versatility.

The ramifications of my suggestion:
* Cons
- Potential OP combos by reaching more guilds in a single deck.
This is an illusory danger. The powerful cards of old are slowly getting overpowered by new releases. New releases are mostly multi-card combos or Caste-specific, neither of wich Courtesan decks can really focus on.
Plus, unless each card in the deck is usable by at least 2 characters, the deck is likely to fail horribly.
- May need to wait for another guild, or more powerful cards, to be released before this change is implemented

* Pros
- Ishaia is suddenly not so overpowered/mandatory, but still Legendary
- Versatility/Manipulation doesn't fade into nothingness
- Allows Feerik to continue designing cards that depend on guild sharing (manipulation/tea ceremony/three cheers), or variable effect depending on user's guilds (potion of seduction/versatility)
- Requires little changes in the game (either add a guild just like "Compendium" caste was added to some characters, or create a new upgrade for each Courtesan)
- Fits easily into the Story

I'm sorry but I must insist that it can easily be fit into the story.

Sure the guilds are what they are, and have their hates and preferences.
But in the end they're all enemies of each other.
What are Courtesans? They are links, but not alliances.
Courtesans are characters that play neutral squeeze the most out of each guild they associate themselves with.

With the Nehantist threat, it makes it easier for a Courtesan to manipulate more guilds at once by dealing with their fears and needs.

Again, Courtesans don't make guilds work together, they work for their own goals by dealing with several guilds.

In a Courtesan deck, the same guild must still be present in all characters.
---

Just think a little about the combinations of guilds in each Courtesan. Do you really think some of them make sense?
They do, because they are Courtesans

Dernière modification par Nurvus (10-08-2011 23:23:12)

willthefox · 18-08-2011 20:39:54

Well I agree with remaking OV and Versatility. I Began playing court some time ago, and it's pretty funny. However i think it would be good to have new combinations, like another Kotoba-Noz Warrior or Draconig Guem Court, for example.
I can say that court it's a really versatile deck. For example i use iaid with ogooe and i recicle it with clonation on Galmara

Nurvus · 14-05-2012 02:40:23

So now there's a new guild - Runic Legion.
In total, that's 9 guilds.

Not counting Ishaia, Doyen, Mylad and Marlok (who can all use Suspicion of Treason), does the current state of Courtesans start to make sense with what was said in the first post?

Does my suggestion begin to have a meaning?
A 3rd Guild for each non-Legendary Courtesan is much needed.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (14-05-2012 02:42:03)

Sapphon · 14-05-2012 11:13:14

We are discussing about Courtesans' future and we have some plans. But I'll give them your suggestions, see if it can lead somewhere.

Stormholt · 14-05-2012 13:35:15

Okay, my sugestion:

Some other class besides maurader, fighter and mage, it can got some Clerics, Craftsman and even a Berserker. Well we can see that now, the updates come whit 2 guilds, i trough that it would help the coming of new Courtesans, becuz a character could come whit the both guilds, but it dont .And well if we want to make courtesans, a playable caste again, we must do a lot of characters, and a mix of guilds, exemple:

A character that is Nomad and Runic(Could be CLeric)
A character that is Runic and Zil(could be cleric too)
A character that is Pirate and Kotoba(craftsman)
A character that is Pirate and Runic(Warrior)
A character that is Pirate and noz(Mage)
A character that is SaP and Runic(Berzerker, and yes, you guys should invest on berzerkers!)
A character that is Sap and Runic(Unknown, so the unknown line up could be possible)

And it goes on, and please, if you guys do a new courtesain, please make one that match with ZIL, every zil countesain' dont look more zil than the other guild, look:

Galmara Look more kotba than zil
Hashna look more nomad than Zil
Ooge kage look more kotoba than zil T.T

Poor zil, dont got courtesains...

Sapphon · 14-05-2012 13:43:17

Stormholt a écrit :

Poor zil, dont got courtesains...

Because Zils are infiltration experts. They blend in their surrounding. Silently. Invisible.

But this thread has good stuff. I'll try to get them to use some of your ideas, guys.

Tempest Poet · 14-05-2012 14:11:42

Another, and less "destructive" Option (bc you don't need to change old cards, which you always should prevent) is to increase the amount of guilds for your courtesans with a static ability on new courtesans.

The effect could be something like:
"All your other courtesans gain >enter guild name< in addition to their other guilds until the end of the game."

The effect can be changed in several ways, like giving a (specific) guild affiliation at random or target character. You can use this effect either as a static ability or as an order-bonus. You could even consider lasting the effect for a specific amount of turns, or only odd/even turns etc.

This kind of effect gives you a lot of utility options for characters, cards and so forth. And on top, you don't have to change old cards.
Another positive side effect is the fact, that you still have a good overview and could even stay with 2-guild courtesans, cutting off some guild-cards out of deckbuilding with more focus on courtesan card effects.

This will give courtesans, in my opinion, the best possible versatility without having to consider too much with guild-specific cards, if you don't want them to be used and have more focus on courtesan actions/spells and their guild-trigger effects. So even if you can't play the guild-specific cards, it could be possible to trigger the guild-specific effects of your courtesan actions/spells your characters do naturally not have.

I hope this is not too confusing and you guys can follow me. If not, feel free to ask

Greetz
Tempest Poet

Dernière modification par Tempest Poet (14-05-2012 14:24:49)

Cossette · 14-05-2012 14:35:15

A nehant spy in the court would be nice, but i think its improper guild affiliation...

Nurvus · 14-05-2012 15:48:47

Thanks alot for the input.
But the least destructive of all options is indeed adding a new upgrade to each old Courtesan.

Each of these upgrades could require a new courtesan card.

Like:
Kimiko + new courtesan action #1 = 3-Guild Kimiko
Angelica + new courtesan action #1 = 3-Guild Angelica
Oogoe Kage + new courtesan action #2 = 3-Guild Oogoe Kage
etc...

- Oogoe Kage (Warrior) - Kotoba + Zil Warriors + Pirates
- Oogoe Kage (Marauder) - Kotoba + Noz'Dingard + Zil Warriors

- Lord Galmara (Shadow) - Kotoba + Zil Warriors + Pirates
- Lord Galmara (Fire) - Kotoba + Noz'Dingard + Pirates
Lord Galmara is totally Pirate-style

- Kimiko - Runic Legion + Desert Nomads + Kotoba
- Hasna - Runic Legion + Desert Nomads + Zil Warriors
- Angelica - Runic Legion + Desert Nomads + Noz'Dingard
- Mylad - Pirates + Sap Heart + Noz'Dingard
Mylad would love to get to know Lightning Bolts

- Dandy - Noz'Dingard + Sap Heart + Desert Nomads
- Psalm - Runic Legion + Kotoba + Sap Heart
Psalm, his Sitar and the Runic Legion are made for each other

- Marlok the Repentant - Noz'Dingard + Zil Warriors + Pirates
Totally Piraty

Dernière modification par Nurvus (14-05-2012 15:55:13)

Stormholt · 14-05-2012 16:09:26

Sapphon a écrit :

Stormholt a écrit :
Poor zil, dont got courtesains...
Because Zils are infiltration experts. They blend in their surrounding. Silently. Invisible.
But this thread has good stuff. I'll try to get them to use some of your ideas, guys.

Thank you, may the clerics bless you xD

Tempest Poet · 14-05-2012 18:18:56

Start editing already existing cards IS a destructive Step as itself. As you can't change Cards texts in printed TCG's, it shouldn't be otherwise here. If some Cards are weaker because of future updates, you just can't errata them until they fit into the meta again. The better way is to find a solution how you can make them viable again w/o changing their card texts. One possible way is shown here [card]Turned to the shadow Side[/card] and the other is adding a level to exisitng characters as it happened recently with [card]Hares the Runic[/card] to [card]Runic Lord Hares[/card] though i can't say i like the idea of doing this to almost all existing courts.

Following my idea, you could give courtesans a completely new, interesting and well fitting playstyle.

You could have alot of different abilites, which suits their playstyle perfectly. If i had the endurance i could even provide you a full and well balanced update.

I have to admit that i don't know if this fits with the story, but i think there shouldn't be any problems. Courtesans convincing other Characters to work for them is an easy and obvious explanation.

Let me give you at least one possible Example for a Character:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Councelor of Truth
Guild: Zil-Desert Nomad
Class: Warrior
Caste: Courtesan
Effekt: At the Start of the first fight of the game, all your Courtesans become Sap-Heart until the end of the game.
Order: 3,4:Choose one Card in your graveyard. This card is played. Remove all cards in your graveyard.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you could even play Cards like [card]diplomatic message[/card] in a completely new style.
And most of all, you can add those "becomes Guild X" in any way you like. Being it new Actions, Order Bonuses, given a limites account of turns or even static abilites, which trigger if specific conditions are met.

Greetz
Tempest Poet

Dernière modification par Tempest Poet (14-05-2012 18:20:11)

Nurvus · 14-05-2012 19:00:01

Tempest, I think you got me wrong.

1 - I like your suggestion, and I would love to see Courtesans like that in the game.
But it does not replace mine - they work well together.

Trying to replace my suggestion with yours has a problem: You're forcing players to use the new "courtesan support characters" in order to make the old courtesan useful.

Think of the Unknown Class/Sitar Hero Courtesans.
They're a good addition to the game, just like your idea, but doesn't change the fact that the old Courtesans are STILL fundamentally weak due to how the game is evolving.

2 - My suggestion doesn't necessarily involve changing cards.
Adding a new level to each Courtesan is perfectly fine, just like Hares.
Imagine [card]Azalys the Five Time Widow[/card] was released with 3 levels.
She'd still be good, but not as good.

What I'm suggesting here, is that Feerik adds her 4th level.

Now imagine the same for old, underused characters, including Courtesans.

3 - This is NOT a TCG, it's an iTCG.

Magic the Gathering doesn't errata cards for one reason:
THEY CAN'T - not without screwing every player who acquired said cards before the change.

Feerik should constantly tweak/change cards for one reason:
THEY CAN - and they would change retroactively without screwing any player.

Q: But they risk making cards underpowered or overpowered and upset players who may have worked hard to obtain them.
A: That's a very negative perspective, but it already happens with the constant power creep. Cards are constantly turned into trash due to new, powerful releases.

If Feerik admits the flaws in their releases and attempts to adjust all cards to the intended meta, the game will flourish like never before.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (14-05-2012 19:18:42)

Tempest Poet · 14-05-2012 20:35:07

Hehe i understand your point of view Nurvus. So if they decided to change cards, they obviously made overpowered (like they did here: http://forum.eredan.com/viewtopic.php?id=32771&p=1) i wouldnt have any problem with your idea as an addition. As long as it stays with boosting old cards, not nerfing new ones.

But you still need to be careful with those 3 guilds. I.e. adding Noz to Mylad could be a bit too much. (Doyen, Mylad, Ishaia). But putting that aside, i do think your idea would help the courtesans by a good amount.

To the topic with editing cards: In my opinion, they should start thinking be4 creating obviously broken cards like Scragh, Ecstasy, the above linked nomad update+HaP. Those kind of things wouldnt happen, if Feerik had at least a few workers who really know about Trading Cards and their mechanics. I don't want to offend any1 working as a game-designer, but there are way too much overpowered cards released these days.

For me, it looks like feerik wants to increase sales with those kind of cards, which is the worst possible way of keeping players in the game.
If they start to nerf/boost cards as they feel to (because they were under/overpowered) some cards i may currently obtain will be worth a s*** and losing faith in the value of cards is the worst thing one can do.

I wouldnt even think of playing this game if i recognize, feerik tries to manipulate cardprizes so ppl need to buy boosters to get more crystals they lost, because the cards they obtain are not even worth a tenth of what you may have payed for on the market.

And once again i wrote way more, than i wanted to

Greetz
Tempest Poet

Dernière modification par Tempest Poet (14-05-2012 20:43:57)

soulst3al3r · 14-05-2012 20:48:13

that link saddens me..i remember when sol'ra eclipse and reinforce the faith were actually useful

Stormholt · 14-05-2012 20:51:39

soulst3al3r a écrit :

that link saddens me..i remember when sol'ra eclipse and reinforce the faith were actually useful

Actually this link make me happy, and very happy, we need some more of that and less of this:

AND YES I PISS OF WHIT THIS CARD!!! What piss me off even more, is that feerik do nothing, we cant see them on ELO, but i can see a lot of 'em on The tournament of 2 hour(i forgot the name) it was the way that i could do some money for free, but now i cant win anything, GAH NERF IT NOW!!!

*Shirley enter on fury mode*

EDIT:Check out the people reaction on these post, they were happy, you guys dont want to see us happy?No one like ecstasy, its a OP card, only ecstasy users like it, but if they dont have it, they would rage quit the game, ecstasy got no Counter, only [card]Forced March[/card], but it can be discarted whit [card]Paranoia[/card]. Its time to make this game fair, stop to think that you guys are loosing several players that used to like the game, and give up becuz of cards like this...I loose 2 friends for this f**** card, they said: " feerik is crazy, they only care about making money, so they do this rare and expensive card", its hard now, more and more friends of me is givin' up the game,its hard...I wonder what are u guys waiting for to nerf this card, who's whit me?I bet that everyone.

FEERIK OPEN YOUR EYES!

Dernière modification par Stormholt (14-05-2012 21:07:08)

Nurvus · 15-05-2012 00:16:45

Poet, think of how you'd change cards if it was up to you.

Don't go thinking Feerik will burn cards to the ground or buff cards skyhigh.
Extreme negative thinking won't get you anywhere.

I do think they went too far with their nerfs in the link you posted.
They should've taken smaller steps.

Feerik needs to completely change their stance on card changes, and start being more active and natural.

Adding/removing Chain is a huge deal and should be a last resort.
Changing a bonus from +2 attack to +3/+2 or +2/+3 is minor.

What they did to Sol'ra Avatar was a massive nerf.
They should've done a small nerf and see how things go, and if needed nerf again.

The goal of Feerik should be making every single card in the game worthwhile.

Instead of destroying old cards, make them useful.
Make it so that players seek old cards to combo with new cards.
That increases sales too!

Nurvus · 12-12-2012 02:11:20

And yet another guild has been added (Stone Linkers).

Maybe now is the time to add a 3rd guild to courtesans.

Currently players are pretty much forced to use one of 3 courtesan decks:
a) Doyen & Ishaia, etc, for maximum guild coverage
b) Unknown Class Courtesans
c) Pirate/Sap
It's simply not acceptable.

What about Angelica?
Hasna?
Tea Ceremony?

Right now, if you try to use Tea Ceremony with a 2-guild courtesan, you have ~3/10 chance to be facing a valid opponent.
[card]Emissary[/card] sucks really bad, so it's not even worth mentioning.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (12-12-2012 02:17:32)

Eredan's World

Annonce

#26 08-08-2011 00:01:18

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#27 08-08-2011 00:16:26

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#28 10-08-2011 22:24:54

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#29 10-08-2011 22:46:40

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#30 10-08-2011 22:59:56

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#31 18-08-2011 20:39:54

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#32 14-05-2012 02:40:23

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#33 14-05-2012 11:13:14

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#34 14-05-2012 13:35:15

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#35 14-05-2012 13:43:17

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#36 14-05-2012 14:11:42

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#37 14-05-2012 14:35:15

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#38 14-05-2012 15:48:47

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#39 14-05-2012 16:09:26

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#40 14-05-2012 18:18:56

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#41 14-05-2012 19:00:01

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#42 14-05-2012 20:35:07

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#43 14-05-2012 20:48:13

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#44 14-05-2012 20:51:39

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#45 15-05-2012 00:16:45

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#46 12-12-2012 02:11:20

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

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