Sorry for my bad English, but i'm Italian and if I write on italian forum feerik don't pay attention.
It's months since i took up playing Eredan and now i'm sure that success in elo depends mainly on something we can't control.
Once i get near 1900 I lose all my luck. My damage are the lowest, the card i need disappeared, alla the kotobas i meet play first wakizashi + kensensei etc...
It's impossible that all at once I lose all mu luck and all the match.
there must be something wrong.
I think Luck must depend on something that feerik decide, for instance how much anyone has payed for this game.
at the same time i think the value of the cards we find in boosters depends on our rank in the last eamnezy tournment.= higher your rank lower the value.
That's a shame.!
i'm not stupid.
This game starts make me vomit.
Money money money, all that Feerik think and want is money in a disgusting way.
I don't know if I want play it anymore

Dernière modification par Shocri (18-09-2011 21:35:14)

Glasher · 18-09-2011 20:56:56

Its not luck in this game its mathematics and probability. There's also a famous quote from one of the staffers I'll let someone else post.

Nurvus · 18-09-2011 21:22:58

Luck is welcome.

Being ruled by Luck is sad.
This game suffers from a very steep degree of Luck-based results, to the point where often you have no merit in your victories or defeats - they were decided for you by Luck.

It's the starting hand + who starts first + min/max attack variance.

You can have an amazing deck with an awesome strategy and play brilliantly and still lose just because you always hit the bottom chances and the opponent hits the top.

It may be fun sometimes but gets old, imo.

Again, some Luck is welcome.

Insane differences between Min and Max attacks is very very bad.

A limit should be imposed in that regard, as I suggested in another thread.
---

As for paying for better "rolls"... are you serious?

Dernière modification par Nurvus (18-09-2011 21:26:05)

Shocri · 18-09-2011 21:32:46

I agree with you Nurvus.
I share your ideas.
Because No Luck factor = No suspicion = No recriminations.

In other hand luck factor let me think that there must be a reason if it exists...

tsuke1 · 18-09-2011 21:41:04

i dont mind the luck that much. variations of draw from a 2o card deck are morestable than a 60 card magic deck or a 40/40 L5R deck. 3x limit per card and a 5 card starting hand where you can refill at will by discarding your whole hand should let you get whatever combo it is you feel you need by turn 2 (potentially burning thru 50% of your deck). Once you factor in the min/max thing the amount of luck should even out between eredan and the more established card games.

I have multiple issues with the game from server disconnections, high costs of cards (in both crystal and $), what looks like developer apathy but the luck factor and the basic game design is solid.

Nurvus · 18-09-2011 22:25:24

Some decks are solid.

Alot of decks make or break depending on the starting hand.

Cards like Sacred Nova or Dhan are simply retarded.

If Feerik wanted he could devise a way to include variation without Luck.

By this I mean, you have Min & Max Attack, or Min & Max damage values in various cards.
Hypotetically, imagine you always get Min.

However, you have a "Resource" = Energy.
You gain 5 Energy every Turn.

When playing your cards, before attacking, you can spend Energy to increase the power of certain cards or your attack.

Imagine Sacred Nova dealt 2 damage per Energy. Max = 10.
Imagine 6/9 Attack means you hit for 6 but can increase up to 9 by spending Energy.

Meaning if you spent alot of Energy in one Turn you'd have a shortage in the next.
Or you could accumulate then unleash some powerful cards.

Instead Feerik chose to run Luck wild about the game :S oh well.

tsuke1 · 18-09-2011 22:58:34

sort of like the system bip has? I guess that could work. You have to consider though that you deal with a lower amount of cards. 4 (last time I played) as opposed to 20 +3.

The luck factor isnt worse than most other established card games. Besides if you really really really need that one card in your opening hand then you can put in cards that are less efficient but do the same thing. Lets say I feel like i really really need blast off in my opening hand. If 3/20 is not enough for me then I will add one of the myriad +2 cards to make it 6/20. Less efficient but I get what I feel I need to win. Im sure all the power cards have more limited cousins.

Im more concerned with the ask the devs! thread which hasnt gotten a response in a year XD (if im reading the dates correctly)

Mr. Saint-Germain · 19-09-2011 01:18:44

The luck factor is fine IMO. It's the same thing in other TCGs, and poker to an extant:
If you have a deck that will statistically win more often against an other deck you will win more often against that deck if you do the best decision based on what you can do.

The reason why some people are doing better with a deck than some are doing with the exact same deck is basically because the decision making skills these people have is better.

And I don't think many players are able to do the absolute best decision all the time, i.e.: Discarding the right amount of cards to get the cards you need to win the match. Or playing items instead of actions because of the potential obesity that in reality wouldn't be that likely.

If you always do the right decision, then you can complain about the luck factor. People that win are people that can take an unsuccessful decision 10 times in a row and still take it the 11th time because they know it's the right one.

Anihilate · 19-09-2011 04:37:52

tsuke1 a écrit :

sort of like the system bip has? I guess that could work. You have to consider though that you deal with a lower amount of cards. 4 (last time I played) as opposed to 20 +3.
The luck factor isnt worse than most other established card games. Besides if you really really really need that one card in your opening hand then you can put in cards that are less efficient but do the same thing. Lets say I feel like i really really need blast off in my opening hand. If 3/20 is not enough for me then I will add one of the myriad +2 cards to make it 6/20. Less efficient but I get what I feel I need to win. Im sure all the power cards have more limited cousins.
Im more concerned with the ask the devs! thread which hasnt gotten a response in a year XD (if im reading the dates correctly)

True, beacause I never get a bad draw(aka there is no ideal win/lose hand), but, I usually take the extremist decision when facing people I haven't run into before. Hell, I was on a 13 w streak until I caught a type-mirror match and used the wrong strategy.
PMed the guy "Touche"

There are plenty of ways to alter your ability to do things. There are characters with small min/max in their attacks, and their are plenty of cards that can counter things. Find your favorite playstyle, stick with it, refine it. Unless you want to spend a crapload on feez, you probably won't play competitively anyway, so, chill XD

Nurvus · 19-09-2011 20:31:17

I really am not familiar with bip. The art is just ugh...

The good side of Luck is Variance (wich counters monotony and borethom)
The bad side of Luck is lack of Merit in your results

You can implement Variance while keeping a high degree of Merit in your results, through several possible systems, and you don't need Randomness to achieve it.

In Magic the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh, there's no Luck factor in the Cards themselves.
There's only the luck of the draw.

In Pokemon where there is some Luck factor in the cards (coin flips), you usually have an alternative attack that has a fixed effect.

The 3 games above have massive amount of deck-manipulation cards (and effects in the cards) to give YOU power over your results.

In Eredan, it's the luck of the draw, small amount of deck manipulation, strategies that depend heavily on drawing cards in a specific order, highly variable attack/magic damage...

[card]Dhan[/card] + 2x[card]Sacred Nova[/card] is the extreme example of the luck factor this game can succumb to.

No matter how good your deck and strategy is, so lucky guy can just pull max damage with both Sacred Novas and one-shot you. No strategy - sheer luck.

Someone can use [card]Time to Die[/card] + [card]Heads or Tails[/card] and get +8 Attack.
---

No matter what you say, this game gives your opponent the ability to, no matter what you do, how well you play, potentially lose anyway just because you hit the bottom chances and he hit the top chances.

Your deck can be 10x better and lose because of that - not because of your decision-making or strategy, simply because of Luck.

You can say it's rare, but it's there, and there's nothing you can do to counter it.

The developers can.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (19-09-2011 20:37:28)

p90miki · 19-09-2011 23:17:17

Luck is not factor in this game,strategy metters more then luck. I thing that Dhan is perfect example for this. Try to play whit him like golem whit paladin hummer.Put on him mastercrafsman and some usefull items like backpack ,skyboots, 2 furons and let say 1 rage and 1 no quater

yes luck is facktor in first fight and no more.

Glasher · 20-09-2011 16:25:13

Nurvus a écrit :

Luck is welcome.
It's the starting hand + who starts first + min/max attack variance.

Probability + Probability + Mathematics

Let me start by saying Luck and Probability/Mathematics are NOT the same. Luck happens when an unknown action or reaction occurs. The only luck based happenings in card games is your opponents actions, which you can only attempt to control by placing them in situations where it appears to be best for them to play what you want them to play. However, Eredan is far from a control the game type game. Probability/Mathematics tells you your odds as a fact. While I may have 9 lottery tickets and you have 1. Probability says I should win. Luck happens because I cannot control which tickets I receive, nor the outcome lottery numbers. Much like you cannot control what your opponent does.

So whats the point? Seems the same to me and I'm trying to make them sound different. Well when you KNOW your chances its not about luck. When you make moves to increase your odds it is a lot less luck. For instance take your initial attack. lets say 10/13 attack as is and your opponent has 2 def 11 health. Assuming no defense buff, attack debuff to you, or damage mitigation, you will do 8-11. You have 1 in 4 chance to do a 8(1 in 4) a 9(1 in 4) a 10(1 in 4) or an 11(1 in 4). Now how you play can improve the odds of the overall goal, KILL. you boost attack +3 and decrease def by 1. So now it is 13/16 vs 1 def. You currently have a 1 in 4 chance of each attack being 12(1 in 4) 13(1 in 4) 14(1 in 4) 15(1 in 4), which turn into a 100% chance kill since your min damage will be greater than the hp. Probability and various formulas dictate this. Now, luck will come in to play does your opponent boost his def by 3 your kill percent goes down, does he mitigate dmg, your kill percent goes down. Good decks and players optimize thier decks to increase probability.

My point is, when I play I do not worry about the so called luck of the draw or "Heart of the Cards". I know the math, I know how I built my deck, I know why certain cards are 3 instead of 2 etc etc, and I know why each card was picked. What I don't know, that uncontrollable action and reaction, is my opponent. I have always meticulously built decks and strategies to put out the optimal probability results. Dating back to YGO and Magic this is what I was tought when I played competitively and it is what I still stand by.

Unfortunately...luck and finance have a funny way of working out lol.

tldr; I'm bored lol

Nurvus · 20-09-2011 21:01:18

Glasher - the outcome is Luck.

It is explained by Math, but it is decided by Luck.

Your starting Hand is based on the cards you have in the deck, out of wich you have a chance to draw each of the cards. Wich ones you get, however, you have NO idea.

Your Attack has a Min and a Max, in some cases them being different, wich means you have a variable damage potential. How much damage you get in that case, however, you have NO idea.

The starting hand variable and opponent decision variable is fine.

Some attack damage variable is okay, but the variables are very high.

The difference between [card]Fireball[/card] and [card]Rain of Death[/card] is +2 potential damage.

If Fireball dealt X+4 damage instead of X+ 3 to 5, and Rain of Death dealt X+5 damage instead of X+3 to 7, would it suck?
No.
Would it be boring?
Not really.
The strategy is still there.
The decision making is still there.
You'd simply replace Luck with Merit.

Merit will always feel better than Luck.

I'll tell you what would happen though:
You'd be able to reproduce fights more often, and have a more accurate notion of balance (and unbalance).

As such,
Luck feels like a tool to make it harder to notice unbalance: "You didn't lose because the game is unbalanced, you were just unlucky, that's all..."
---

Even if odds tell you that with 9 tickets you should have 9x the chance to win, I can still win with my 1 ticket, and you can still get -nothing- out of your 9 tickets.

Probability sets the odds.
Math explains them.
The outcome is called Luck.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (20-09-2011 21:08:17)

Dracatis · 20-09-2011 21:30:30

There is luck in this game, but you would be foolish to think that it depended on it. Luck allows for more powerful cards, because just as a card being limited by Guild, Race, Caste, Class, whatever, Luck allows them to make a card that can be powerful, but isn't certianly always that.

As I've pointed out before in other threads, 3 is the magic number for stats increases on a non chain card with little to no limitations. Take Assassination, it's powerful because any Maurader can use it but really it only gives 3 stat, maybe 4 because of it's limitation. There are a lot of them so they couldn't really make it 4, but 3 was weak for the all out attack class so how do you give somewhere between 3 and 4? Easy, luck. Most characters have 1-2 spirit, so most damage spells average 4-5 damage, to make them more powerful they expand the range so rather then 4 damage they make it 3-5 plus your attack stat, spirit. Raw attacks average 4-6 damage, so casting two damage spells should give the same. Rain of Death is a rule breaker... minorly since it still depends on luck. Living Nature isn't a rule breaker because to be powerful it requires a fairly limited set deck and the most powerful uses of it are typically by non-mages that can't chain it(mages that can tend to die really easy).

If you don't want luck play Human Trackers and/or use All's Fair in Love... ...and War. Or manyother ways and cards that pretty much dictact exact amounts. Otherwise just accept luck as a cards limitation for being powerful and enjoy when Sacred Nova hits for 10 and laugh when it hits for zero.

Why so serious?

Glasher · 21-09-2011 02:55:11

I never said there is no luck. Simply put the moves you make a way you build your deck create your probability ratio. If you have 1 assassination your odds of drawing are much lower than if you have 3. That is not luck that is probability.

Each player controls the amount of odds in his favor. Math and luck are entirely different. As I explained it math gives you a given factor. In its simplest form if you have 3 assassination out of 20 cards you have 3 1 in 20 chances of grabbing it. You can do numerous things to increase these odds through the strategy of your deck.

In the end it is more mathematics than luck. Luck tends to have more flare so it gets blamed more often than not. Itis also to say bad luck when in actuality if you had 3 assassinations in your marauder deck instead of 1 and 2 replacements your odds of winning vastly improve.

Probability = a known #(most notably a percent)
Luck = whether or not your probability number was high enough.

Again due to the nature of the game there are various unknowns more often than not ignored.

My main argument with "luck" is people feel the need to say there loss was bad luck due to a bad hand. If your deck was built correctly and you built it with the odds in your favor it wouldnt be a bad hand. It becomes a bad hand when your opponent outplays you. Is that luck or did s/he have higher odds of getting what he needed to win.

Essentially its all statistics. Science of mathematics versus the forces of nature.

Nurvus · 21-09-2011 10:47:05

Glasher, with a smaller influence of Luck in the game:
You'd be able to reproduce fights more often, and have a more accurate notion of balance (and unbalance).

Luck feels like a way to make it harder to notice unbalance. It's like saying:
"You didn't lose because the game is unbalanced, you were just unlucky, that's all..."

In the end, it's the illusion. You get happy when you win due to luck. You get pissed if the opponent gets really lucky.

What happens to those that keep getting unlucky, should they quit the game?
You know it happens.

Probability may say that if you have 1 in a million chance to get something, after a million tries you'll probably get it once.
Reality tells us that there are those who get it alot more than once, and those who never got it and may never do even after a trillion tries.

The difference between having 1 do 10 damage (10% chance to do 10, 9, 8, etc); and having 4 to 6 (33% chance to do 4, 5 or 6), is that the average is the same, but in the case of 1 to 10, if you get constantly 1 or 2, it is frustrating, and there are those players who have a low average due to plain bad luck, and those who have a high average due to plain good luck; and in the case of 4 to 6, even if you rarely get 6, it's not so bad because you won't get a far number anyway.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (21-09-2011 10:49:02)

zoolander · 26-09-2011 05:09:37

Sorry by my bad english too.

I believe that is just luck/bad luck. If you stay in 1900 elo, perhaps you don't do accounting wath times you do the maximum damage until get in there. Just when you start the misfortune part, you realized that the balance was hang overing(is that right?) against you.

Like when you flip a coin: the chances are 50%/50%.. If you play it ten times, maybe you get a result like 70%/30% or 80%/20%, but in the next ten flips, the results can be 30%/70%, but in that case, you see and count when it's heads or tails..
But the chances expecteds in a hundred flips, still are something like 50/50, not necessarily in alternated sequence, but sooner or later all of this tend to stay balanced.

My opinion

Good game to everybody

paulhealth · 26-09-2011 11:41:48

From my experience of the game (over 2500 fights), if for example a character with atack 6/9 does damage, it goes like this:

6 ~ 40% of the time
7 ~ 30% of the time
8 ~ 20% of the time
9 ~ 10% of the time

So maybe there is something in the game programming.

This is strictly an opinion and I've never made such statistics!

Still I think luck is far from a decisive factor for the win and it's in the tolerable limits.

Limestone · 26-09-2011 14:14:00

paulhealth a écrit :

From my experience of the game (over 2500 fights), if for example a character with atack 6/9 does damage, it goes like this:
6 ~ 40% of the time
7 ~ 30% of the time
8 ~ 20% of the time
9 ~ 10% of the time
So maybe there is something in the game programming.
This is strictly an opinion and I've never made such statistics!

Still I think luck is far from a decisive factor for the win and it's in the tolerable limits.

That's why I always use cards that give exact damage like [card]Corruption of the soul[/card], [card]Vital syphon[/card] and many sap heart spells inflict exact amount of fix damage.

Anyway the percentage above is not fully true either, some of my game play and my buddy's often hit max amount of damage as long as the gaps between min and max attack is 3

Luck is just a fun factor, strategy define the outcome

Glasher · 27-09-2011 00:57:47

Limestone a écrit :

paulhealth a écrit :
From my experience of the game (over 2500 fights), if for example a character with atack 6/9 does damage, it goes like this:
6 ~ 40% of the time
7 ~ 30% of the time
8 ~ 20% of the time
9 ~ 10% of the time
So maybe there is something in the game programming.
This is strictly an opinion and I've never made such statistics!

Still I think luck is far from a decisive factor for the win and it's in the tolerable limits.
That's why I always use cards that give exact damage like [card]Corruption of the soul[/card], [card]Vital syphon[/card] and many sap heart spells inflict exact amount of fix damage.
Anyway the percentage above is not fully true either, some of my game play and my buddy's often hit max amount of damage as long as the gaps between min and max attack is 3
Luck is just a fun factor, strategy define the outcome

Your attack is always 1 in X where X equals the 2+ the values between your low and high attack. You could also conclude it as a X sided die roll where X = 2 + the values between low and high attack. They technically equate to the same thing.

Nurvus, it is not due to bad luck. When you are on the opposite end of a higher value chance its just the outcome. 1 in 10k could happen 10k times. It could happen 1k times it could actually happen 0 times. All probability tells you, all it is good for is stacking the odds in your favor. When the odds are in your favor the only unknown factor is your opponent.

The emphasis on losing or winning because of luck is a farce created with ego. "I woulda won if I had better luck!" no you would have won based on many more and much more relevant factors than "luck"

Nurvus · 03-10-2011 21:07:59

Limestone a écrit :

Luck is just a fun factor, strategy define the outcome

Actually, strategy has a very limited power to sway the outcome.

Luck can ultimately overcome or undermine most strategies.

rutse · 05-10-2011 14:24:19

true, luck is bigger than strategy

and discard decks kill your bit of luck too (and the game)

Glasher · 05-10-2011 18:58:33

rutse a écrit :

true, luck is bigger than strategy
and discard decks kill your bit of luck too (and the game)

Your second statement completely mutes the first...

Santuros · 05-10-2011 19:24:27

Glasher a écrit :

rutse a écrit :
true, luck is bigger than strategy
and discard decks kill your bit of luck too (and the game)
Your second statement completely mutes the first...

true u.u

Nessaj · 05-10-2011 19:45:23

'cause it gets negative at some point xD

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 18-09-2011 20:02:21

Luck

#2 18-09-2011 20:56:56

Re : Luck

#3 18-09-2011 21:22:58

Re : Luck

#4 18-09-2011 21:32:46

Re : Luck

#5 18-09-2011 21:41:04

Re : Luck

#6 18-09-2011 22:25:24

Re : Luck

#7 18-09-2011 22:58:34

Re : Luck

#8 19-09-2011 01:18:44

Re : Luck

#9 19-09-2011 04:37:52

Re : Luck

#10 19-09-2011 20:31:17

Re : Luck

#11 19-09-2011 23:17:17

Re : Luck

#12 20-09-2011 16:25:13

Re : Luck

#13 20-09-2011 21:01:18

Re : Luck

#14 20-09-2011 21:30:30

Re : Luck

#15 21-09-2011 02:55:11

Re : Luck

#16 21-09-2011 10:47:05

Re : Luck

#17 26-09-2011 05:09:37

Re : Luck

#18 26-09-2011 11:41:48

Re : Luck

#19 26-09-2011 14:14:00

Re : Luck

#20 27-09-2011 00:57:47

Re : Luck

#21 03-10-2011 21:07:59

Re : Luck

#22 05-10-2011 14:24:19

Re : Luck

#23 05-10-2011 18:58:33

Re : Luck

#24 05-10-2011 19:24:27

Re : Luck

#25 05-10-2011 19:45:23

Re : Luck

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