Why yes in fact it's a discard deck. Ever since I've been playing Eredan (about a year now) the discard decks have been the top ELO players in some form or another. Most of them include Ish and utilizing manipulation and ice barrier, which makes it impossible to even dent the characters since Ish seems to always get that combination off every round. And it's almost impossible to one shot Ish since she always get an ice barrier or manipulation every turn.

From there on you are desperately trying to get high enough damage but they have so many discard and healing opportunities that before you know it you're out of cards. I mean you cannot even counter such a combination every turn, and all it takes is 2 cards to completely dismantle any damage output you have.

I know Feerik does not change/alter/balance any cards, they can barely keep up with all the bugs, but this is the simplest way to balance the discard decks. For some reason Feerik cannot see how overpowered and how every top ELO player uses discard in some way or another. Frankly I'd like to see discard banished altogether because it just makes no sense in an attack/defense/spirit game of cards.

However I know that is out of the question so I see no other way to balance discards other than to increase the card pool players start with. Even with 30 cards you might... just MIGHT see a turn 5 or 6 when encountering discards.

Any input into discard decks and how to balance them will be useful and if this thread gets a lot of replies it will show Feerik how much they are unbalanced and dominate the ELO for over a year now.

Thank you for reading.

Nurvus · 26-09-2011 18:13:21

You're wrong - Feerik does change cards: he did that with [card]Lightning Chain[/card] (wasn't AoE when released), [card]Hasna[/card] (her Order Bonus used to do 3 direct damage at max Level)

So he does change, and I'm glad he does - it's an iTCG - he can afford to change them.

I'm just disappointed he doesn't do it more often.
So many suggestions around the forums and we don't even have a clue whether he bothers thinking about them or just ignores them.

Norad IV · 27-09-2011 01:57:56

I'm talking about stuff that matters now. Lightning chain and Hasna are so obsolete and useless it's not even worth talking about.

Discards have been overpowered since day 1.

Paladino.:RR:. · 27-09-2011 17:40:57

Increasing the number of cards is no small thing. It's not like Hey we will have more cards aganst discards...

It would change the entire gameplay, especially making harder to draw the card you need. Not saying it could not work, but it would really change the way Eredan is played.

They would have to think of bigger hands, cards that once were unique wont be as good since the chance of you draw them will be harder and etc..

Just saying that its not a simple thing as changing the card limit number...

Nurvus · 27-09-2011 21:00:26

Norad IV a écrit :

I'm talking about stuff that matters now. Lightning chain and Hasna are so obsolete and useless it's not even worth talking about.
Discards have been overpowered since day 1.

An obsolete Hasna or Lightning Chain and an overpowered discard deck theme belong to the same design mentality we've been suggesting Feerik to change.

I disagree with increasing the number of cards of a deck because that will simply make decks more random, and they are already too random atm.

Adding more cards, specially general (no-guild) cards that have side-effects that soft-counter discard is a way.
Plenty of castes are getting anti-discard effects: The Immortals, Dragon Knight, etc.

tsuke1 · 28-09-2011 05:13:48

I actually like the increase deck idea. What we have now is an increasing number of cards which are so good that they will make it into a deck of a certain archetype. And some cards which are so OP that they can make it into any deck regardless of archetype.

Increasing the library to 25 or 30 would force people to include more cards than before which leads to more variation in decks

iQuit · 28-09-2011 11:50:38

and discard is dead

And this idea isn't good . usually , a game ends in 6-8 turns , and with 25-30 cards , you will need alot of luck to pull out the right card .

Dernière modification par iQuit (28-09-2011 11:59:21)

MrLordi92 · 28-09-2011 17:12:53

iQuit a écrit :

and discard is dead
And this idea isn't good . usually , a game ends in 6-8 turns , and with 25-30 cards , you will need alot of luck to pull out the right card .

Not sure I agree with Discard being dead. Maybe Disco is, but not Discard.

And I agree with this last part. All increasing the deck size will do is dilute the deck. Another 5 cards won't open the door to some new innovations, it'll just make games even longer and boring.

Roarky · 28-09-2011 19:15:17

Recycle cards like Arachnophobia is a good way against discard...
Prolly make some more of this card type?

Dracatis · 29-09-2011 20:45:12

I like the idea of having more cards in a deck. More random isn't a bad thing since then you just have to plan out your deck better, less chance of getting abusive combos and nullify the OPness of A New Beginning. I actually think the 20 card deck is more of a problem, not just for discard but because we get a lot of the same old cookie cutter decks, opening the size a bit more would give people a chance to do some more complex strategies and make extra card drawing a bit more useful.

How about this idea instead for some middleground:
Decks need to be 20-30 cards.

That way those that want more efficient decks can do 20 and those that want a bit more variety or discard defense can do a little more.

Shadoww · 29-09-2011 20:46:41

+1 ! In a lot of TCG, the limit of the cards in a Deck, can be reached

I've yet have this Idea

(Sorry for My Englsh =/ )

Norad IV · 01-10-2011 02:08:10

Seems like some mixed feelings about this idea. I would suggest altering Ish or how discards work but Feerik just won't balance out the discards.

Roarky suggested more recycle type cards which may help but that only submits too the already exhausted "new cards every week" idea, and of course randomly doing an event the day after a card release to greed their way into more money.

That point aside, I've come up with a new strategy.

So Feerik has no problem making new castes out of characters that had nothing before (demon hunters for example), so why not make certain cards recycle. I primarily play desert nomads or kotoba so why not make cards effective against discard recycle like.. oh say.. anything with +attack.

Bottom line is these discard decks are so overpowered the attack/defense/spirit aspect of the game does not even apply. Ish is so unbelievably overpowered she only needs 6 cards to dominate any and every opponent that doesn't rely on discard (manipulation/ice barrier).

This cookie-cutter deck HAS to end. It is so retarded that it makes me ill.

However completely doing away with discard decks would make this game a billion times more fun and go back to the original paper/rocks/scissor game that made it so addictive and fun in the first place.

Nurvus · 01-10-2011 09:07:47

If decks get raised in number of cards, we'll need more cards like [card]Illumination[/card] or [card]Armor Invocation[/card], or effects like [card]Ripper[/card] Turn Bonus.

Otherwise, the player will have even LESS merit in winning games because it'll be all about who's the lucky player that gets the best hands.

I have already suggested 2 ways to balance out powerful combos/cards: The RANK and the ELITE stats.
It -would- fix things.

Increasing the deck size to 30, sure, but give players more "deck searching" power, or it'll be an even more frustrating randomfest than it already is.

And it won't fix other overpowered decks like Port or Stall (discard) decks that can survive forever.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (01-10-2011 09:10:12)

Sapphon · 01-10-2011 10:13:10

As some already said, to just raise the cards' limit is something that could lead to new problems. And we wouldnt be that sure it would solve any issue.

Devs are monitoring ELO results for months now, checking decks, checking metagame, etc. Believe me : they know what are the true problems, and they are working very hard to solve them.

Nurvus · 01-10-2011 10:28:03

Any thoght given about Elite or Rank suggestions I posted in this forum, regarding balancing the game?

Sapphon · 01-10-2011 10:33:14

Didnt see them yet. I'll have a look at it.

Nurvus · 01-10-2011 10:48:51

Much appreciated. Even though certainly not perfect I believe any (or both) of them might remove the need to ban cards.

Norad IV · 03-10-2011 01:16:57

Sapphon a écrit :

As some already said, to just raise the cards' limit is something that could lead to new problems. And we wouldnt be that sure it would solve any issue.
Devs are monitoring ELO results for months now, checking decks, checking metagame, etc. Believe me : they know what are the true problems, and they are working very hard to solve them.

Wow thank you for some insight, it's rare to get staff members posting on the english forums.

But still any discard deck is hard to deal with unless you have a deck primarily based on maximum attack, but that means you have to do away with defense. Believe me I've been playing this game for so long and discard decks can win against ANY type of deck. These caste cards you guys deal out every week or so have no defense against discards. Discards are just the best deck out there to deal with any situation.

I even chatted with one of the top ELO guys for a while when witchblades were overpowered and he said he plays nothing but WB or discards cause they could beat anything. Now that WBs have been balanced it still leaves discards open to win against any deck.

Hell I've been playing Demon Hunters since the cards came out and have yet to come up with an effective strategy. Since discards are my biggest concern I go all out on attack but any deck that isn't discard pretty much wins cause they have defense cards and counters. Even against discards it's 50/50 so as you can imagine I stay between 1500-1600 ELO with this caste (and I've logged about 10,000 games so it's not like I'm a newb). It pisses me off to no end and I don't even know why I play this game other than the fact that I somehow believe it will go back to the good old days.

Anyway just do away with discards and then there will be some good competition.

Gabriel_Caetano · 03-10-2011 02:04:25

Norad IV a écrit :

Sapphon a écrit :
As some already said, to just raise the cards' limit is something that could lead to new problems. And we wouldnt be that sure it would solve any issue.
Devs are monitoring ELO results for months now, checking decks, checking metagame, etc. Believe me : they know what are the true problems, and they are working very hard to solve them.
Wow thank you for some insight, it's rare to get staff members posting on the english forums.
But still any discard deck is hard to deal with unless you have a deck primarily based on maximum attack, but that means you have to do away with defense. Believe me I've been playing this game for so long and discard decks can win against ANY type of deck. These caste cards you guys deal out every week or so have no defense against discards. Discards are just the best deck out there to deal with any situation.
I even chatted with one of the top ELO guys for a while when witchblades were overpowered and he said he plays nothing but WB or discards cause they could beat anything. Now that WBs have been balanced it still leaves discards open to win against any deck.
Hell I've been playing Demon Hunters since the cards came out and have yet to come up with an effective strategy. Since discards are my biggest concern I go all out on attack but any deck that isn't discard pretty much wins cause they have defense cards and counters. Even against discards it's 50/50 so as you can imagine I stay between 1500-1600 ELO with this caste (and I've logged about 10,000 games so it's not like I'm a newb). It pisses me off to no end and I don't even know why I play this game other than the fact that I somehow believe it will go back to the good old days.
Anyway just do away with discards and then there will be some good competition.

in fairness...i got a discard i only use to get some trophies now and them. I've always played zil beatdown and discards usually took me 50:50 when they came out and later haven't been a problem when i got the hang of 'em. i must tell i never got hold of abomination and before saphyra the zil i used golemarlok... so you see, nothing of first rate zil decks. Now people been complaining about treacherous and theft way before the circus caste been out. Don't take me wrong, i'm just sharing my own little experience here andd trying to get another point of view. Most decks have a 'range of effectiveness'. From all games i played for example i can't recall winning but once against immortals, i found them op. But i must say they just have a wider range of effectiveness i guess. What makes great players stand out is the surprise element. With the direct damage deck i'm playing now, i find discards just an easy way to score perfects. But then again i faced this guy who went wild in originalty of the concept and i didn't have a chance. Of course we don't have to be forced dropping our favorite decks to get top winning elo decks. But discards are mostly very predictable and easy to deal with. And i'm not a top elo rank player. There are a few cards that point directly towards minimizing the damage of discard decks. And in fact, every deck should have slots for cards that counter weak points. And what's the point in not having weak points. I also noticed that most cards we receive now have been long planned, way before their castes came out, so in fact: there's always a few decks that stay hard for a while longer than others but it seems in the big picture that all cards fit into some kind of system.

That's my point of view.
thanks for hearing.

Gabriel_Caetano · 03-10-2011 02:08:54

And it also seems that in any tcg, players have most trouble facing deckas that have a less straight forward and more manipulative stand. Sometimes, brute force is not enough. That from someone who play zil marauders! ;-P

MrLordi92 · 03-10-2011 03:37:48

Gabriel_Caetano a écrit :

And it also seems that in any tcg, players have most trouble facing deckas that have a less straight forward and more manipulative stand. Sometimes, brute force is not enough. That from someone who play zil marauders! ;-P

+1

Having played Magic for the past seven years and having played it competitively for about three, aggro decks are mush easier to beat than a control deck.

Gent M · 03-10-2011 10:47:46

The only card that can make a discard deck unbeatable is Ishaia, otherwise any deck that can deal high damage from the start (like Sap heart) and does not have high spirit has a good chance to beat them.

Nomads with longevity and plaston, zil with saphyra and rain of arrows, kotoba that do not play cards mindlessly, sap heart multi race (rargnor + one brother in arms has 14/18 T1) and I am sure others can come up with other examples of decks that can handle discard.
Of course I am talking about top notch versions of those decks.

goscar · 03-10-2011 11:10:30

Raising card in a deck is a lazy way to try and fix discard deck. Even then, it does not make discard any less potent.

Nessaj · 03-10-2011 13:58:08

i think that increasing size of decks to prevent discard would also give more place for discard decks to put even more things to make you discard xD

Gabriel_Caetano · 03-10-2011 14:53:57

Nessaj a écrit :

i think that increasing size of decks to prevent discard would also give more place for discard decks to put even more things to make you discard xD

hahaha! You got that right!

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 26-09-2011 02:16:57

A way to balance discard decks

#2 26-09-2011 18:13:21

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#3 27-09-2011 01:57:56

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#4 27-09-2011 17:40:57

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#5 27-09-2011 21:00:26

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#6 28-09-2011 05:13:48

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#7 28-09-2011 11:50:38

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#8 28-09-2011 17:12:53

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#9 28-09-2011 19:15:17

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#10 29-09-2011 20:45:12

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#11 29-09-2011 20:46:41

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#12 01-10-2011 02:08:10

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#13 01-10-2011 09:07:47

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#14 01-10-2011 10:13:10

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#15 01-10-2011 10:28:03

Re : A way to balance discard decks

#16 01-10-2011 10:33:14

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#17 01-10-2011 10:48:51

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#18 03-10-2011 01:16:57

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#19 03-10-2011 02:04:25

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#20 03-10-2011 02:08:54

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#21 03-10-2011 03:37:48

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#22 03-10-2011 10:47:46

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#23 03-10-2011 11:10:30

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#24 03-10-2011 13:58:08

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#25 03-10-2011 14:53:57

Re : A way to balance discard decks

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