Eredan's World

Majyqman · 14-04-2011 01:42:56

Are these, rather high level in some cases I might add, players whose turns consist of playing a single (out of place) card and then discarding the rest... in order to quickly get the xp for losing... actually sitting there doing that? Or do we have bots now?

Tyrant of Alchemy · 15-04-2011 15:50:56

I have some across this several times in the training room this past week. Player either discards all their cards every turn, never plays a card or just keeps their hand and never plays a card. Definitely seems like a bot to me.

I'm going to keep a list of players I come across who have done this against me if the mods are interested.

Dernière modification par Tyrant of Alchemy (15-04-2011 22:43:05)

para · 15-04-2011 23:39:13

Tyrant of Alchemy a écrit :

I have some across this several times in the training room this past week. Player either discards all their cards every turn, never plays a card or just keeps their hand and never plays a card. Definitely seems like a bot to me.
I'm going to keep a list of players I come across who have done this against me if the mods are interested.

ive done it myself to get crystals and xp, but lvl faster. although i mainly restrict mine to the training room

Hondaime · 15-04-2011 23:53:11

Tyrant of Alchemy a écrit :

I have some across this several times in the training room this past week. Player either discards all their cards every turn, never plays a card or just keeps their hand and never plays a card. Definitely seems like a bot to me.
I'm going to keep a list of players I come across who have done this against me if the mods are interested.

i've done the discard thing my self but i'm no bot and i only did this one because i wanted to lvl up my apostle fast to lvl akutsai xD

but i have seen some player's that do what you said in the lvl rooms , maybe a bot maybe not

para · 16-04-2011 17:47:14

yeah i can understand that completely, and it shouldnt be hard to realize who is and isnt. i dont see how someone who actually plays could have thousands of games and a 12% win

Poptolev · 16-04-2011 17:53:23

para a écrit :

yeah i can understand that completely, and it shouldnt be hard to realize who is and isnt. i dont see how someone who actually plays could have thousands of games and a 12% win

Yeaaah good luck with that. I made a bot (when I had a trackers deck, didn't use it for more than 10-15 games so I can be sure it worked so don't suspect me of anything =/) - color/image based, he could chain cards after shuriken (but didn't chain a shuriken after another), he could make comboes (In your face + up your ass, or in other words specific chains) he discarded 1-2 cards ocassionally ... he pretty much played like a normal player with kind of lower IQ but still unrecognizable (it had 40% wins if I remember right ... but maybe I had good luck with the randomizer which chooses the opponents).

It took me some time to polish it but you can make such a bot for 1-2 days of work and a partner (so you can take the needed pictures, colours, cordinates on the screen and etc) but after those 2 days of work it will be impossible to recognize him unless feerik implements anti-bot system which tracks down the mouse movement ... and still .. I have that human-like mouse movement I made for another browser game which checks (ah .. summer projects ).

Dernière modification par Poptolev (16-04-2011 17:57:36)

steven_allen · 16-04-2011 19:05:54

Way to go, you just admitted to cheating.

Poptolev · 16-04-2011 19:20:03

Um ... if we are going to discuss a problem, hiding stuff and telling half of the side is not going to do any good ... or am I wrong ? And 10 botted matches from ~1700 in total is hardly cheating =/

steven_allen · 16-04-2011 19:56:28

Thats like saying, "I stole some stuff once, just to see if I could get away with it. I totally did, but it was only a couple things, so its ok."

Dernière modification par steven_allen (16-04-2011 19:58:26)

Poptolev · 16-04-2011 19:59:57

Leaving that behind - you will still have hard time recognizing bots if you have no idea how a bot works =/

[Mod edit: Removed improper language. ~Bleach]

Dernière modification par Poptolev (16-04-2011 20:30:47)

Hondaime · 16-04-2011 20:24:16

If you can't do the time don't do the crime ...

bleachman · 18-04-2011 04:45:12

I removed more than improper language from some posts in this thread. Please keep discussions and threads as civil and well mannered as possible.

On topic I would like to quote the Terms of Service.

You agree that no materials that are part of the Service may be modified, copied, distributed, framed, reproduced, republished, downloaded, scraped, displayed, posted, transmitted, or sold in any form or by any means, in whole or in part, or otherwise exploited without Feerik's express prior written permission
* develop, distribute, or publicly inform other members of "auto" software programs, "macro" software programs or other "cheat utility" software program or applications in violation of the applicable License Agreements

Creating a bot for 'fun' is a major violation of the terms of service. You can rest assured that this will be forwarded to Feerik staff immediately.

Tyrant of Alchemy a écrit :

I'm going to keep a list of players I come across who have done this against me if the mods are interested.

Please do not as doing so could be regarded as singling out other members of the community based on litterally guesses. Putting honest players at a disadvantage for basically no reason is pretty hefty.

Majyqman · 19-04-2011 08:01:47

Tyrant of Alchemy a écrit :
I'm going to keep a list of players I come across who have done this against me if the mods are interested.
Please do not as doing so could be regarded as singling out other members of the community based on litterally guesses. Putting honest players at a disadvantage for basically no reason is pretty hefty.

What on earth is this? It's not like action would be taken solely on this basis of these reports... BUT if the same person shows up in reports from a bunch of players, then wouldn't it save staff a lot of time that would otherwise be spent working out who they should look at? Even WoW encourages players to report people acting suspiciously... what's the difference here?

And, no, when a player plays one card a turn, and discards the rest to deck out and get credit w/o a loss to fairplay, it's "literally" better than a guess that they're not there manually doing that for 200+ games in a row.

bleachman · 19-04-2011 08:20:07

Majyqman a écrit :

Tyrant of Alchemy a écrit :
I'm going to keep a list of players I come across who have done this against me if the mods are interested.
Please do not as doing so could be regarded as singling out other members of the community based on litterally guesses. Putting honest players at a disadvantage for basically no reason is pretty hefty.
What on earth is this? It's not like action would be taken solely on this basis of these reports... BUT if the same person shows up in reports from a bunch of players, then wouldn't it save staff a lot of time that would otherwise be spent working out who they should look at? Even WoW encourages players to report people acting suspiciously... what's the difference here?
And, no, when a player plays one card a turn, and discards the rest to deck out and get credit w/o a loss to fairplay, it's "literally" better than a guess that they're not there manually doing that for 200+ games in a row.

You cannot report someone based solely on suspicion. You cannot go to the police and tell the cops your neighbour robbed a bank because he is suddenly purchasing lots of expensive things. You need proof. Submitting such reports to feerik based on mere suspicions is a total waste of your and especially their time as they have to document and protocol each report submited.

In addition, let us say you share your list, people might regard people on your list as cheaters and also label them and behave accordingly to them. That is singling out a person and basically making their life unnecessarily and unfoundly miserable. It is unfair and that is why such lists are never tolerated in forum communities.

And I know plenty of people who do that and who have done that in the past. Just because you do not understand why a person would do that, doesn't mean they do not do it. I do not understand why people sit in front of a game for 12 hours a day, and yet they still do it. Stop being paranoid and just enjoy the game as much as possible. If you dislike playing against bot-like players, look for friends and regulars to play with/against.

Tyrant of Alchemy · 19-04-2011 15:01:27

just enjoy the game as much as possible. If you dislike playing against bot-like players, look for friends and regulars to play with/against.

That's the only reason I began making a list in the 1st place. Its to avoid playing against these "bot-like" players.

No one has asked to see the list I have made, and honestly I only have 1 name on it since I noticed this happening.

I think your analogy of reporting suspicion to the police is inaccurate. I think that you should report your neighbour's suspicious activities to he police. The reason is so that they can do their job and investigate. I would expect the same from any one at Eredan who wanted a list of potential bot users. I would expect them to investigate to see if the users were using bots or not. I am not condemning anyone by making a list.

Its only an observation, and data collection. Nothing more. No accusation intended.

Majyqman · 19-04-2011 15:26:06

bleachman a écrit :

Majyqman a écrit :
Please do not as doing so could be regarded as singling out other members of the community based on litterally guesses. Putting honest players at a disadvantage for basically no reason is pretty hefty.
What on earth is this? It's not like action would be taken solely on this basis of these reports... BUT if the same person shows up in reports from a bunch of players, then wouldn't it save staff a lot of time that would otherwise be spent working out who they should look at? Even WoW encourages players to report people acting suspiciously... what's the difference here?
And, no, when a player plays one card a turn, and discards the rest to deck out and get credit w/o a loss to fairplay, it's "literally" better than a guess that they're not there manually doing that for 200+ games in a row.
You cannot report someone based solely on suspicion. You cannot go to the police and tell the cops your neighbour robbed a bank because he is suddenly purchasing lots of expensive things. You need proof. Submitting such reports to feerik based on mere suspicions is a total waste of your and especially their time as they have to document and protocol each report submited.
In addition, let us say you share your list, people might regard people on your list as cheaters and also label them and behave accordingly to them. That is singling out a person and basically making their life unnecessarily and unfoundly miserable. It is unfair and that is why such lists are never tolerated in forum communities.
And I know plenty of people who do that and who have done that in the past. Just because you do not understand why a person would do that, doesn't mean they do not do it. I do not understand why people sit in front of a game for 12 hours a day, and yet they still do it. Stop being paranoid and just enjoy the game as much as possible. If you dislike playing against bot-like players, look for friends and regulars to play with/against.

This just so bass ackward... I can't even express.

Firstly, noone said anything about publicising lists, so that whole bit is moot.

Secondly, police actually DO encourage people to report suspicious behavour, like the guy in the van hanging outside the primary school in the middle of the day... but all glibness aside, google "police report suspicious activity", get 1.75 MILLION results, realise even the smallest percentage of that being calls to do so would make your assertion look asinine. (and given the first page of results are all just that...)

But, even if we're to ignore your rather, shall we say, incorrect understanding of how the "real world" works in regards to suspsicious activity...

Thirdly, this is a multiplayer online game, EVERY iteration of which I have EVER encountered encourages players to, or at least doesn't try to actively dissuade players from, report(ing) other players engaged in activities which fall outside the normal scope of play.

Now, I'm not entirely sure what weight you actually carry as just a moderator of a subset of the forums... but I hope you're speaking for just your own opinion on this matter, and being sorely mistaken on it, and that this is not actually the position of the feerik staff...

Because, fourthly, I have considerably less desire to put effort and money towards a game where I am told that instead of assisting in the identification of parties who are utilizing automated programs to achieve goals that I also strive for, cheapening the work I put in... I should suck it up and play in a clique instead of using inbuilt matching features.

Dernière modification par Majyqman (19-04-2011 15:27:22)

jackal19 · 19-04-2011 15:38:17

I agree with you dude about the list stuff but you must understand that some people may try to take advantage of this and report those that are playing fairly its going to be like the salem witch hunts. and in every report there is paperwork to be done which like Bleachman said is a waste of time without a proper proof of the deed done.

Oh yeah to tell you the truth i also do the discard my whole deck thing so i could save time in leveling my characters

Dernière modification par jackal19 (19-04-2011 15:47:19)

bleachman · 19-04-2011 16:09:46

I am amazed that you presume to compare my petty example of a possible neighbour suddenly having lots of expensive things, to some shady guy sitting in a dark van in front of a school. Totally different things, imo, but kudos for exagerating MY view of things. I personally believe you should report suspicious behaviour to the police. But I am not going to report every little tiny thing without the scarce amount of proof.

In your example, I would not report the guy in the van, should he opnly be there for 5 minutes. Should he on the other hand, stand there for a longer period of time, e.g. 3 hours, I would report that as that is rather SUSPICIOUS. An action totally out of the ordinary.

@ The original poster

I listed that example as a possible occurence in the future. You can take the hint at the context by the words 'Let us say...'. Also who is to say that someone else wont post their list? Or that lists will be passed around amongst the community? You may be one person who wouldn't share the list, but I am pretty sure other people would consider. That is why I wanted to make it abundantly clear that such behaviour will not be tolerated in the forum.

The problem with this case is that you cannot call such behaviour irregular or out of the ordinary. People discarding all their cards to speed games up is commonly used. I know plenty of people who have done so themselves and I, also, belong to the group of people who occasionally ditch the cards to speed up the long grind. How are you going to determine who is bot and who isn't?

The way people play the game is not written down as a law somewhere. You are not forced to play smart or strategically. You do not even have to play cards. Basing alone on this fact, I wouldn't call such behaviour out of the ordinary. Some people play like that, just like some people play other games differently than you, I or anybody else. Just because of this, you cannot accuse somebody of botting. Especially since, as you said yourself, it is just a GUESS. Guessing sucks, usually for everybody else who isn't the one guessing, at least in this kind of circumstance.

Do not get me wrong. I understand how you feel about other players gaining an advantage or standing equal ground to your hard work by doing absolutely nothing by abusing bots and other methods of illegal gaming. I personally was strongly involved in getting the ruling on multi-accounting straight, as that used to be a major problem we had months ago. I know exactly how you feel. On the other hand I cannot be that unfair to report someone just oin a hunch.

Majyqman · 20-04-2011 00:47:17

The problem with this case is that you cannot call such behaviour irregular or out of the ordinary. People discarding all their cards to speed games up is commonly used. I know plenty of people who have done so themselves and I, also, belong to the group of people who occasionally ditch the cards to speed up the long grind. How are you going to determine who is bot and who isn't?

We'll ignore the rest and boil down to this.

Because if they were just doing it to power through the grind... why would they add a significant amount of time to each game by playing a single, random, irrelevant card each turn?

THAT is what originally caught my eye on this topic, when a bunch of my opponents started doing this exact thing all at once, when I'd never encountered it (but had encountered the discard everything every turn player) before that day.

And how are we meant to determine who is a bot and isn't? We're not, but if a player is flagged enough times by many different people (so none of this witch hunt crap), then the admins will have a better idea where to direct whatever bot confirmation methodology they have.

bleachman · 20-04-2011 04:02:16

Majyqman a écrit :

The problem with this case is that you cannot call such behaviour irregular or out of the ordinary. People discarding all their cards to speed games up is commonly used. I know plenty of people who have done so themselves and I, also, belong to the group of people who occasionally ditch the cards to speed up the long grind. How are you going to determine who is bot and who isn't?
We'll ignore the rest and boil down to this.
Because if they were just doing it to power through the grind... why would they add a significant amount of time to each game by playing a single, random, irrelevant card each turn?
THAT is what originally caught my eye on this topic, when a bunch of my opponents started doing this exact thing all at once, when I'd never encountered it (but had encountered the discard everything every turn player) before that day.
And how are we meant to determine who is a bot and isn't? We're not, but if a player is flagged enough times by many different people (so none of this witch hunt crap), then the admins will have a better idea where to direct whatever bot confirmation methodology they have.

If you think it is a bot, why would a person create a bot that plays one insignificant card instead of one that tosses the entire hand as many other players do? To seem less suspicious? I highly doubt it.

You are right. We aren't able to determine it. That is why you cannot, as a player, tell the difference between a bot and an active player. That brings your flaggings down to mere guessing again, which is most probably wrongly guessed in most cases. Pointing a finger is all fun and good, but its not fair if you have absolutely no proof or actual grounds to suspicion.

Majyqman · 20-04-2011 04:12:36

bleachman a écrit :

Majyqman a écrit :
The problem with this case is that you cannot call such behaviour irregular or out of the ordinary. People discarding all their cards to speed games up is commonly used. I know plenty of people who have done so themselves and I, also, belong to the group of people who occasionally ditch the cards to speed up the long grind. How are you going to determine who is bot and who isn't?
We'll ignore the rest and boil down to this.
Because if they were just doing it to power through the grind... why would they add a significant amount of time to each game by playing a single, random, irrelevant card each turn?
THAT is what originally caught my eye on this topic, when a bunch of my opponents started doing this exact thing all at once, when I'd never encountered it (but had encountered the discard everything every turn player) before that day.
And how are we meant to determine who is a bot and isn't? We're not, but if a player is flagged enough times by many different people (so none of this witch hunt crap), then the admins will have a better idea where to direct whatever bot confirmation methodology they have.
If you think it is a bot, why would a person create a bot that plays one insignificant card instead of one that tosses the entire hand as many other players do? To seem less suspicious? I highly doubt it. *
You are right. We aren't able to determine it. That is why you cannot, as a player, tell the difference between a bot and an active player. That brings your flaggings down to mere guessing again, which is most probably wrongly guessed in most cases. Pointing a finger is all fun and good, but its not fair if you have absolutely no proof or actual grounds to suspicion.

*Actually, yeah, to throw a spanner at software looking for patterns, that's exactly it. But I'm not surprised at this point that I needed to point that out. Better yet, for those botters, is now the knowledge that one resource that might act as a flag to this sort of behavior is, UNLIKE EVERY OTHER ONLINE GAME, being actively discouraged from doing so.

And, once again, we can't definitively know which players are bots, but in the Venn diagram of bot/not bot we can certainly flag the behavior circles that include significant real estate inside the bot circle... to most efficiently facilitate their rooting out. Or not, apparently.

Dernière modification par Majyqman (20-04-2011 04:14:23)

bleachman · 20-04-2011 04:33:07

Majyqman a écrit :

bleachman a écrit :
Majyqman a écrit :
We'll ignore the rest and boil down to this.
Because if they were just doing it to power through the grind... why would they add a significant amount of time to each game by playing a single, random, irrelevant card each turn?
THAT is what originally caught my eye on this topic, when a bunch of my opponents started doing this exact thing all at once, when I'd never encountered it (but had encountered the discard everything every turn player) before that day.
And how are we meant to determine who is a bot and isn't? We're not, but if a player is flagged enough times by many different people (so none of this witch hunt crap), then the admins will have a better idea where to direct whatever bot confirmation methodology they have.
If you think it is a bot, why would a person create a bot that plays one insignificant card instead of one that tosses the entire hand as many other players do? To seem less suspicious? I highly doubt it. *
You are right. We aren't able to determine it. That is why you cannot, as a player, tell the difference between a bot and an active player. That brings your flaggings down to mere guessing again, which is most probably wrongly guessed in most cases. Pointing a finger is all fun and good, but its not fair if you have absolutely no proof or actual grounds to suspicion.

*Actually, yeah, to throw a spanner at software looking for patterns, that's exactly it. But I'm not surprised at this point that I needed to point that out. Better yet, for those botters, is now the knowledge that one resource that might act as a flag to this sort of behavior is, UNLIKE EVERY OTHER ONLINE GAME, being actively discouraged from doing so.
And, once again, we can't definitively know which players are bots, but in the Venn diagram of bot/not bot we can certainly flag the behavior circles that include significant real estate inside the bot circle... to most efficiently facilitate their rooting out. Or not, apparently.

Are you saying that these programs cannot look for certain other patterns, such as a player playing one single random card every turn and nothing else? Technically a bot could do anything. Have fun determining what a bot cannot do and can do. I am sure plenty of bot developers could surely make very complex and very unsuspicious bots.

Why are you overdramatising my stand on this matter? It is my own personal view and opinion as a player. There is no need to blow it up and act as if players are discouraged to do what you suggest from others. So far its basically only you and me headbutting on this issue. LIKE IN EVERY OTHER ONLINE GAME, you will have people who do not share your opinion. Learn to live with it buddy.

Also, Venn was a douche.

Nurvus · 24-04-2011 03:59:26

Your list is only useful if Feerik staff has already some suspicion of certain players in it and your suspicion ends up helping them begin investigating.

You should never expect Feerik staff to go and investigate something like that based solely on your suspicion.

A player who seems to be botting to you, will probably seem the same to everyone else, and yet may not be botting at all.

To be honest, this happens mostly because Eredan does not scale its reward with the time invested in a fight.
Whether you win after 1 min or 10 mins, after 3 turns or 9 turns, you will gain the same amount of Exp/Crystals/Character Exp, wich makes slow fights/decks boring to fight against and essentially makes some players just rather lose by discarding their whole hand, or even leaving.

If Feerik set what he believes to be a reasonable ratio of Crystal/Hour or Crystal/Turns, and then scaled the reward according to the variation of Time or Turns, you would see less people quit or hand you over the fight, and less reason to "act botty".

Dernière modification par Nurvus (24-04-2011 04:03:24)

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 14-04-2011 01:42:56

So, Bots?

#2 15-04-2011 15:50:56

Re : So, Bots?

#3 15-04-2011 23:39:13

Re : So, Bots?

#4 15-04-2011 23:53:11

Re : So, Bots?

#5 16-04-2011 17:47:14

Re : So, Bots?

#6 16-04-2011 17:53:23

Re : So, Bots?

#7 16-04-2011 19:05:54

Re : So, Bots?

#8 16-04-2011 19:20:03

Re : So, Bots?

#9 16-04-2011 19:56:28

Re : So, Bots?

#10 16-04-2011 19:59:57

Re : So, Bots?

#11 16-04-2011 20:24:16

Re : So, Bots?

#12 18-04-2011 04:45:12

Re : So, Bots?

#13 19-04-2011 08:01:47

Re : So, Bots?

#14 19-04-2011 08:20:07

Re : So, Bots?

#15 19-04-2011 15:01:27

Re : So, Bots?

#16 19-04-2011 15:26:06

Re : So, Bots?

#17 19-04-2011 15:38:17

Re : So, Bots?

#18 19-04-2011 16:09:46

Re : So, Bots?

#19 20-04-2011 00:47:17

Re : So, Bots?

#20 20-04-2011 04:02:16

Re : So, Bots?

#21 20-04-2011 04:12:36

Re : So, Bots?

#22 20-04-2011 04:33:07

Re : So, Bots?

#23 24-04-2011 03:59:26

Re : So, Bots?

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