Eredan's World

Falanin · 16-02-2011 19:06:50

Okay, in this post -> http://forum.eredan.com/viewtopic.php?p … 89#p249089 I gave my initial thoughts on the Tsoutai release. I'd like to go through and explain my position a little better and give my thoughts on what should happen to fix the problems I see.

First, and bluntly: any card that requires a Tsoutai to play should NOT be kotoba only. I might change my mind if someone can give me a compelling game-balance or fluff reason, but all the Tsoutai--including [card]Toran the Faithless[/card]--should be able to use the Tsoutai cards. This would give a player options. Options are good, they encourage creative play. Creative play is good, it makes for a more fun game.

[card]Toran the Regent[/card] is a marauder, but he's missing his attack bonus vs. a class. Yes, he has a spirit bonus instead, but that's not how marauders are defined, according to the wiki. The character is weak enough, give him his bonus. I don't LIKE that he was made a hybrid instead of a pure mage--it doesn't go well with the fluff--or that his "upgraded" version is now weaker than his erstwhile rival Akutsai, but I have no suggestions concerning that at this time.

[card]The Flawseeker's Meditation[/card] is an interesting defensive card. However, it's of rather marginal application. It would be far more useful and thematically appropriate if the card also caused your character to lose all of his classes and become a mage. With that change it may be too powerful unless the spirit bonus is reduced to 1, but it would be a change that made the card useful.

On further reflection, [card]The Flawseeker's Fury[/card] doesn't bother me as much. Granted, it's not nearly as good as the cards the witchblades got, and it's far more difficult to use as a mage card, but a +3 to attack is a +3 to attack. No suggestions on how to fix it at this time.

[card]Lucky Charm[/card] and [card]Tatamijutsu[/card] need to be usable by both Crow and Tsoutai, not just the one character that is both. I realize that this might be a wording or translation error, but I mention it on the off chance that it isn't.

Sorry about the angry post earlier. I'd not slept well and hadn't had my caffeine yet. Thanks for listening.

Dernière modification par Falanin (16-02-2011 21:33:28)

XenoZangotta · 16-02-2011 19:21:45

Falanin a écrit :

Lucky Charm and Tatamijutsu need to be usable by both Crow and Tsoutai, not just the one character that is both. I realize that this might be a wording or translation error, but I mention it on the off chance that it isn't.

Fairly sure it's either or, kinda like how [card]Armed and Ready[/card] says Marauder - Warrior, these says Crow - Tsoutai in the same manner.

Zorak · 16-02-2011 19:43:25

Toran the Regent lvl 2+ have Spirit +1 vs Mages and at lvl 4 he allow ALL Tsoutai to chain any Flowseeker's card. So, at round 1 Flowseeker's Fury+Assassination+Hime = +8 to +9 attack bônus.

Falanin · 16-02-2011 20:08:08

Zorak, I agree that [card]The Flawseeker's Fury[/card] isn't as bad as I thought on first glance. I said that in the opening post of the thread. I have issues with the fact that it reduces your spirit to 0, but I can live with that.

The most important change, to my mind, is: Allow [card]Toran the Faithless[/card] to use the Tsoutai cards. At least some of them. He's a Tsoutai, he should be able to use the cards.

Dernière modification par Falanin (16-02-2011 21:34:13)

Zorak · 16-02-2011 20:36:26

But you have a new Toran that's better than the old one, forget the old bc you cant use both of them in the same deck, you know that. C'est la Vie.

Rathedan · 16-02-2011 20:38:07

It's not entirely compelling, but its a reason.

It's game evolution.

Toran and Akutsai were brought out wayyy back. The game has changed and grew since then.

Multi-guild castes are non-existent in the current game scenario. Look at courts. The supposed multi-guild caste never spans beyond a central guild (usually kot), the cards involved in them are universal or one guild themed. Its the same with classes in castes for the most part.

The reason? Managing multi's weakens the strength of a 20 card deck. Strength comes from the ability to play most of your cards with any single draw or turn.

Counter cards have been designed around this as well now. Most people play off the assumption people play uni-guilds. Throwing a wrench in that throws off the meta. ([card]mutiny [/card]for example)

It's not really a reason. But its probably the only reason it's made the way it is. Old Toran doesn't fit the current metagame, New Toran does. And changing cards has never been a policy for Feerek so old Toran gets the shaft.

The character is weak enough, give him his bonus. I don't LIKE that he was made a hybrid instead of a pure mage--

Goes back to the synergy issue.

All three Kot Tsoutai are marauders, meaning theres plenty of possible beatdown combos with assa, TTD, warr fury.

Two are mages, the other a war guem, meaning that including kata's can be used by all three. Two can use RoDs, which is pretty good.

I've been making a hybrid Tsoutai/Tracker deck for weeks now using most of this, and it works well. Taking out the tracker to implement more Tsoutai should really solidify it.

[card]The Flawseeker's Meditation[/card] is an interesting defensive card. However, it's of rather marginal application

[card]Katamaru[/card] negates attk loss.

Twin it with [card]Rain of death[/card] next turn?

*shrug* I like meditation and fury. They seem very useful in order to mutate your cards as to suit your opponent, and they chain, so its a bonus.

Lucky Charm and Tatamijutsu need to be usable by both Crow and Tsoutai, not just the one character that is both.

Wording on cards like that means either/or, not both.

In other words, you can make a decently kickass Crow mage deck and use these cards to your advantage.

Falanin · 16-02-2011 21:31:02

Rathedan a écrit :

[card]Katamaru[/card] negates attk loss.
Twin it with [card]Rain of death[/card] next turn?

Actually [card]Katamaru[/card] brings you up to your original attack -1. Also, since none of the kotoba Tsoutai can chain spells, twinning [card]Rain of Death[/card] isn't an option.

As for single caste being the trend--or even being a stronger option--I don't see that as a good reason to deny [card]Toran the Faithless[/card] the ability to use the new Tsoutai cards. So what if he's not the best option? He's AN option. He's certainly cheaper in the market than the new rare.

Actually, Feerik HAS changed cards. [card]The Best Defense[/card] used to not be unique. [card]Hasna[/card] used to do 3 damage on her order.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion on my actual suggestions, though. Do you think that letting Toran the Faithless use the Tsoutai cards has merit? What do you think of adding a marauder attack bonus to the new Toran? (assuming he doesn't have one and it's not just missing from the text or something) How do you like my proposed redesign of [card]The Flawseeker's Meditation[/card]?

Dernière modification par Falanin (16-02-2011 21:35:00)

Rathedan · 17-02-2011 01:28:14

Actually Katamaru brings you up to your original attack -1. Also, since none of the kotoba Tsoutai can chain spells, twinning Rain of Death isn't an option

.

You can chain the meditation itself though to it.

Theres two times you'd use meditation. One is for high defense, low spirit opponents to put more punch into chained spells. The other is anti-mages. Losing 1 att while negating thier defense with kata, and adding +2 to spell def and +1 health each turn pretty much is a good exchange IMO.

They've taken a "printed" card stance though more often than not. You can't change cards in MTG printed, but you can release new ones to compensate. Given new cards each week, its easy to do. (the antiport card this week is a good example)

I'd be interested to hear your opinion on my actual suggestions, though. Do you think that letting Toran the Faithless use the Tsoutai cards has merit?

I honestly think that Faithless is wasted in the deckbuild given the multiclass marauder theme. Like I said, the old one doesn't mesh, so they probably didn't even consider it. I'm not even sure what deck build you would try for that'd have enough tsoutai in it to make it worthwile. The best you're looking at is Faithless/Aku/Hime, which means theres zero non-Tsoutai cards you can add that can be played by all three, which is a big hamper to game flow.

And like I said, taking the Kot off the cards ruins some of the counters. Not many in high ranks, but given the propensity to play full decks in level rooms lately, Ive run up against Mutiny and Suspicion of Treason a few times now. Remove the Kot tag, you've removed those cards from the meta for countering. ,

As for being weaker than Aku, he isn't. Attk wise, he's 6/9, akus 7/9, but he traded 1/0 attk for 1 life. In truth, thier values are the same. He still has +x vs X class, its just a spirit instead of an attack, and given the obvious inclusion of Kata, its just as good, if not better for a mage/marauder. Chaining Warriors fury to Katamaru is going to be disgusting. +7 attack and minus your defense? Yes please.

I don't mind your idea for meditation, but again, it ruins the whole current theme. Its not meant to be a pure mage deck. Its meant to be, like witchblades, a beatdown deck with spells. If the current card set was more spell based, it'd make more sense what you wanted to do, but since it isn't, it doesn;t really fit.

Glasher · 17-02-2011 01:35:18

Harmony should be tsoutai only no guild restriction. Thats all I got. Rest is fine imo.

OG TORAN IS STILL THE BEST MAGE IN THE GAME!

Falanin · 17-02-2011 02:17:20

Rathedan, we'll have to agree to disagree. The way I see it, [card]Toran the Faithless[/card] is one of the original two Tsoutai in the game. Making him unable to use any of the Tsoutai cards is just wrong. Why even have the keyword on his card if you can't use him?

I believe that you overestimate the gameplay impact of making the tsoutai cards merely caste restricted. I so rarely see [card]Mutiny[/card] or [card]Suspicion of Treason[/card]--and they so rarely DO anything--as to make it a huge deal when either card is actually played and works.

steven_allen · 17-02-2011 02:20:10

I mostly just agree with the Faithless getting screwed out of Tsoutai cards. He would be the ONLY character in the game unable to use cards from his caste. Name a single other character that has that draw back and I'll concede the point.

xNNYx · 17-02-2011 02:31:31

I agree that while the game has evolved and things change, which is ultimately a good thing, excluding the original Toran like this is a slap in the face. As Steven has pointed out no other case like this has happened, at least to my knowledge either. He deserves to be able to play the cards from his caste, as he has been around with nothing really going for him, and now that the caste finally gets a release this whole he's outdated doesn't fly no matter what point you try to make.

Case in point it's wrong, people already had him, and he shouldn't have been forgotten about like this.

Rathedan · 17-02-2011 03:32:49

But what's the point if none of the cards are any good to him?

Give him access to the tsoutai cards, he still integrates like crap with the rest of the caste...I know I'd never use Faithless in a multi deck. None of the cards benefit him besides harmony anyway. The others were designed with either crow decks in mind (tatamajitsu) or multiclass (flawmakers) or both. None benefit from pure mage class.

He's a strong mage, but he was meant to be that way since he has no guild specific cards. Same as Aez and Hares.

They're a bit beefier than non merc cards simply because they are mercs without any benefits of guild only cards. Mercs tend to have an extra stat or two because of this, at least the stronger ones. Tempus mercs are weaker b/c of thier caste.

I'll counterpoint by asking you to name me a non tempus merc that has a cross guild caste besides Toran. Could you imagine if Aez was a Crow? How broken would that be?

He's an oddity and an error that fit the storyline. Thats it. If anything, he should have his caste removed so he fits with the other mercs IMHO.

Just agree to disagree and leave it at that I guess.

bleachman · 17-02-2011 03:49:29

I do not see what the big problem is. Toran the Faithless was a decent mage before this update, and still is a decent mage after this update. He is not in any form weaker or better from this update, if anything he is left untouched.

I understand the argument that he is a Tsoutai and should be able to use Tsoutai cards. But it is not so far fetched when you regard the storyline. Toran betrayed his own clan and became 'The Faithless' and left his clan/caste. Why should he still be able to benefit from their specialties and arts when he is not even part of them?

All I know is, I am going to enjoy the new cards brought out today, quite a good bit that are actually worthwhile for Kots and give them that extra edge they have been lacking for quite some time.

Glasher · 17-02-2011 06:15:56

OG Toran benefits as well because when he faces new kids on the block he gets more spirit. While he cant Kata 2x Than the Sword or two Rods with 6 spirit is gonna hurt.

GGuti · 18-02-2011 14:05:55

bleachman a écrit :

I understand the argument that he is a Tsoutai and should be able to use Tsoutai cards. But it is not so far fetched when you regard the storyline. Toran betrayed his own clan and became 'The Faithless' and left his clan/caste. Why should he still be able to benefit from their specialties and arts when he is not even part of them?

but he is still on the tsoutai caste, then the new cards shouldnt have guild restriction IMO.
The thing is, without him, the best deck would be Hime, New Toran, and Akutsai, which makes it impossible to make a decent deck, even with old Toran it'd be difficult, but thats better than nothing

Dernière modification par GGuti (18-02-2011 14:14:08)

Nurvus · 10-03-2011 02:20:07

Wouldn't be the first time Feerik changed cards, their wording, their effects, made them AoE or Unique, etc.

Who else other than the Tsoutaï can use Tsoutaï cards? None.
Nothing bad would come out of it.

Toran the Faithless can't use [card]Katamaru[/card] nor does he belong to the Crow, meaning he can't use Tsume either.

You'd just have "Tsoutaï-Crow Kotoba Mage-Marauder" vs "Tsoutaï Mercenary Mage" to choose from, since you can only have 1 Toran, and as such the other 2 Tsoutaï spots would be filled by Hime and Akutsaï (for now).

--

Essentially, every other poster is just using the "there's a new Toran in the block, forget the old one..."

The point is precicely that there is absolutely no reason to make the Tsoutaï Kotoba-only cards.
There's no reason not to change them.

The game does not gain anything from destroying ideas/creativity.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (12-03-2011 22:55:18)

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 16-02-2011 19:06:50

Fix the Tsoutai cards

#2 16-02-2011 19:21:45

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#3 16-02-2011 19:43:25

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#4 16-02-2011 20:08:08

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#5 16-02-2011 20:36:26

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#6 16-02-2011 20:38:07

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#7 16-02-2011 21:31:02

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#8 17-02-2011 01:28:14

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#9 17-02-2011 01:35:18

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#10 17-02-2011 02:17:20

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#11 17-02-2011 02:20:10

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#12 17-02-2011 02:31:31

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#13 17-02-2011 03:32:49

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#14 17-02-2011 03:49:29

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#15 17-02-2011 06:15:56

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#16 18-02-2011 14:05:55

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

#17 10-03-2011 02:20:07

Re : Fix the Tsoutai cards

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