Eredan's World

Nurvus · 02-12-2010 02:53:49

Player Level has little to no correlation with the power of their decks.
A player level 20 may be starting a different deck with level 1 characters (he may have done that several times over) while a player level 10 may stick to their starter deck characters to the point they reach level 3.

This leads to very unfair decision-making and unfair match-ups in Leveling Rooms.

Personally, I'd remove Leveling Rooms and replace them with my suggestion; Player Level has only 1 usefulness currently - it determines what cards you can buy from the store...

Suggestion - Grade Rooms:
- Cards are given a Value, let's say from 1 to 7 - it reflects its general power/usefulness.
Neither the rarity nor the Upgrade Level affect this value directly - they do affect a card's power/usefulness wich in turn may affect this value.
- Decks have a Grade, wich is the sum of the Value of all the cards in it.

Grade Rooms would be separated by ranges similar to Leveling Rooms, using Grade instead, like 121-150, 141-170 and so on.

Note: There would be -no- way to know another player deck's Grade - only see the usual information (Level, Total Games, Win/Loss %, Temporary/Permanent Elo) would be available - otherwise players could identify "popular decks" by their exact Grade and pick their opponent, wich defeats the point of this suggestion.

How is this different from other Rooms?
- Leveling Rooms do not reflect a player's deck, only his Level - and this slight connection to number of fights influences character level, forcing you to use your most leveled characters or risk being trampled.
Note: Leveling rooms are often filled with players that lose alot of fights = alot of battles for their level = high level characters for their level even as free players.
- Elo rooms do not reflect a player's deck, only his Elo. You are randomly matched to opponents within the room, wich has an Elo range.
Player accomplishment is measured here - bring your best deck and you might win.
Note: Elo rooms are often filled with players using their best deck, and everyday weakest are offered in a silver plate to the strongest as free wins when Temporary Elo resets to 1500.
- Grade rooms reflect a player's deck. You will find players with decks reasonably close to yours in card power/usefulness and therefore be matched in skill and strategy.
Note: Grade rooms would most likely be filled with players trying to evolve or practice with their decks, seeking to find fair fights rather than being butchered in Elo/Leveling/Training Rooms.
---

Reason #1: Very obvious - actually reaosnably balanced casual matchups, unlike in Leveling Rooms.
The defining factor towards winning or losing would then weight more towards player skill and well constructed deck synergy rather than having higher evolutions and more powerful/expensive cards.

You'd be facing players with decks of similar power.

Reason #2: A player keeps rising in level. If I decide to change deck at -any- point after about level 10, it is a death sentence in Level Rooms.

At level 10 nearly everyone has level 2 characters, and some even have level 3; even as free player.

If you play Zil and suddenly decide to play "The Pack" and get BloodSword, Fenrath, at level 1, you will start being butchered by sheer character level diference.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (02-12-2010 03:21:57)

para · 02-12-2010 03:13:09

i think this would be a good idea, maybe not necessarily get rid of lvl rooms altogether right away. this would be a good system for the next tournament that takes place since in this last one people often had op cards that lower lvls stood no chance against even though everyone used lvl 1 characters

Nurvus · 02-12-2010 03:26:56

para a écrit :

i think this would be a good idea, maybe not necessarily get rid of lvl rooms altogether right away. this would be a good system for the next tournament that takes place since in this last one people often had op cards that lower lvls stood no chance against even though everyone used lvl 1 characters

Are you referring to the one-hit-kill tournament?
Anyway, I'm very convinced this idea of mine would be the closest thing to balance in this game - and should not be limited to tournaments, but implemented as Rooms as well.

I started with Noz'Dingard... then decided to make caster deck... lack of spell cards; then got Eglantyne and started playing with Moira & Eglantyne with a random sidekick, at first Pilkim, then Zahal.
I was constantly finding opponents with level 2 (sometimes level 3) chars when my chars were level 1; and level 3+ chars when my characters were level 2.

A friend of mine started with Noz, did a few quick matches and then bought 2 cards right away, and suddenly reached 25 win streak, getting stronger and stronger as trophy Crystals poured into his account and allowed him to buy nice upgrades for his deck from the market.

A level 10 doesn't have the same chance to gain trophies like win streaks as a level 1 does.

Level just makes it harder and harder for you to make -any- changes to your deck's core.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (02-12-2010 03:28:56)

para · 02-12-2010 03:33:52

the mage tourney if thats the one
and i didn't say limited to tourneys, i said use them as a test. would be better than implementing right away into the rooms

_GrUnT · 02-12-2010 10:38:50

You've got my identic idea ... but Eredan staff didn't answer me ...
Look here: http://forum.eredan.com/viewtopic.php?i … at=itcg-it

Seraph · 02-12-2010 10:46:36

The community urges for such sort of system.
I , and many others, agree with you.

Nurvus · 13-01-2011 19:16:25

Now that holidays are over, I think it's more likely this thread will get meaningful visualisation.

Hopefully there will be more important insight.
The purpose of this suggestion is to make fights more fair.
And as a side effect, not disencourage you to play whatever new deck you feel like evolving just because you're level 15 or 20 and everyone you fight on level rooms has most or all their characters maxed out.

As far as levels go, I see them as a bad thing, not something you look foward to increasing... since they force you to fight evolved decks, regardless of what deck you have.

Every trophy you gain, gives often so much XP, making you level faster, that you're just getting yourself closer to being stomped whenever you try a new deck in Level Rooms unless you find yourself a "punchbag" friend to take some losses for you.

Please take a look at the original post and post your thoughts.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (13-01-2011 19:20:53)

Youkay · 16-01-2011 02:39:03

I think it is a good idea to determine the "value" of a deck and enable match ups for equivalent decks. However, this should only be done in order to train your characters, other cards or to have fun without being smashed by lvl 5 cards and legendary cards.

Elo rooms are there for competition in order to have a ladder of the best players online. Of course everyone should battle with their best decks. So I dont agree with you there.

There are already training rooms. I think Feerik should change them in a way that you have proposed. That would be great for starters and for those, who want to try a new guild!

wamhu · 17-01-2011 04:22:06

I like the grade rooms idea but it should not really be all centered on the characters.

Generally u can just run them through the training rooms these days, and especially now that xp is pretty high u can easily have rank 3s in 2 weeks even when u lose every single game on purpose
(which is what I do since I just want to train my characters and don't really feel like putting another seperate, well-constructed actions/items/etc for the training deck)

(I don't know how this may work but I'm just putting it out there )
Grade rooms should in fact be based on the sum of average crystal price(in marketplace OR store) for all the cards in that deck.
This is more accurate than charcter ranking cuz let's face it, a rank 3 cigue/mashtok(zil) is on a whole seperate plane from a rank 3 big rage.
And this seperates ppl who own legendaries from other players since these cards obviously will sell for a LOT more than most cards.
The better a card is, it is natural that the price for it will be higher, so using this way to determine a deck's strength makes a lot of sense to a certain degree.
Though this can get a bit fishy when it comes down to collector cards, which needs to be assigned a arbitrary which may throw the system off

However I don't think level rooms aren't that bad before level 10 because eredan's experience system is exponential, so a level 11's experience is easily 5X less than that of a level 13/14.
Also another way to avoid playing against strong players after level 11 is to not look at their lvl which is pointless but to look at their winning percentage. This is possible if u challenge ***bip*** oppenents instead of clicking "random confrontation" because the game allows u to look at a player's stats (aka elo, winning %, level) and the winning percentage is pretty much accurate after level 10 because I have a winning percentage of 58% and against ppl with 50+% winning chance, my chance of winning is around 50/50, but against ppl with less than 50% winning chance, I easily have a 80% chance of winning ^^

Nurvus · 22-01-2011 16:52:06

@Youkay
The only thing I criticize about Elo ratings is the Temporary Elo reset, letting very low rating players (like 1300s, etc) get matched up against very high rating players (like 2000) whenever temporary elo resets.
What's the point in that?

Other than that, Elo Rooms are good.
I really only have a beef against Leveling Rooms - actually, the concept of Level in Eredan is ridiculous, it's a penalty. Nothing really good comes out of it other than accessing some cards at the store.

A player lucky enough to wins alot at the start, gaining alot of trophies, like the consecutive win trophies - and Trophies give insane amounts of Experience - may very well find himself at level 10 with under 50 fights played, and when luck runs out, he suddenly finds himself with level 2 characters and whatnot facing level 3+ fully developped decks in Leveling Rooms.

@Wamhu
The idea has -nothing- to do with characters.
It's about giving each card an individual value, and adding the value of all cards in your deck to define its "grade".
Even if cards aren't given a 100% balanced value it will still be a colossal step towards fair matchups.

Value is not determined by adding Stats or measuring effects, but those do have their weight.
For example:
- Lv6 Abomination will obviously have more value than Lv5 Abomination, but not necessarily more value than Lv5 The Shadow or Lv3 Fenrath.
- Lv3 Lightning Bolts will obviously have more value than Lv1 Lightning Bolts.
- A rare does not necessarily have more value than an Uncommon or even Common, it really depends on how useful a card is overall.

As for your tips about Leveling Rooms, I appreciate them, but I know about that, and I think it's not the attitude we should be having when playing.
We should be more carefree and with spirit of competition.
Instead, players always try and find a weakling to beat up.

In Grade rooms, that wouldn't be possible since you wouldn't be able to tell their Grade. All you'd know is that their grade is valid for the room, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

----

To get to the point:
- In Leveling Rooms, players look around for opponents with inferior statistics, be it rating, level and/or win percentage.
- In Elo Rooms, a reasonably fair system is implemented, but every time temporary elo rating resets, the weak are offered in a silver platter to the strong.

- In Grade Rooms, there would be a min and max grade allowed, but you would -not- know other players' Grade when inside.
No cherry picking the weak.

If you swapped to a weaker deck, you might have to change rooms (decks with invalid Grade for the current Grade room you are in would be grayed out in deck selection) but you'd always be playing in a room with decks of similar grade to yours.

That would mean everyone would have fun - whether they level new decks or play their best deck - since they'd always be matched up fairly.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (22-01-2011 17:04:23)

wamhu · 24-01-2011 04:54:11

Value is not determined by adding Stats or measuring effects, but those do have their weight.
For example:
- Lv6 Abomination will obviously have more value than Lv5 Abomination, but not necessarily more value than Lv5 The Shadow or Lv3 Fenrath.
- Lv3 Lightning Bolts will obviously have more value than Lv1 Lightning Bolts.
- A rare does not necessarily have more value than an Uncommon or even Common, it really depends on how useful a card is overall.

And this value is often, if not always, represented by the price for the card. There are a whole bunch of rare cards that are pretty useless and NONE of them sell for a high price. Unless all the ppl playing this game are dumb and don't realize the cards for their actual value, I don't see the problem in grading cards by their marketplace value........with the rare case of cards such as the [card]watchmaker of destiny[/card] a player's deck is usually proportional to the amount of money they spend on it

NOTE: a foiled card should be graded according the normal card's price since all its extra value goes to the random color + extra exp gain, not the card's actual usefulness.

LiQuiD · 24-01-2011 06:34:57

A much simpler fix would be to give each character card a value equal to its level and then total the values for each character in the deck. The deck's value would then allow it to be entered into certain level rooms based on character values, not player levels.

Potential rooms could be sorted by values "3-5", "6-8" and "9+"

For example, a deck consisting of...

Level 6 [card]Abomination[/card] = 6 points
Level 4 [card]The Shadow[/card] = 4 points
Level 1 [card]Telendar[/card] = 1 point

Total Value = 11 points

And this deck can only enter the 9+ room.

....Or a deck consisting of.....

Level 3 [card]Amaya[/card] = 3 points
Level 2 [card]Hime[/card] = 2 points
Level 2 [card]Malyss[/card] = 2 points

Total Value = 7 points - can only be entered in room "6-8"

This way any maxxed out deck will be forced to play in the higher "9+" room, while decks that are mid-evolved can play against other similar decks in room "6-8" and then starter decks have a room for themselves with values "3-5"

Nurvus · 15-02-2011 16:19:12

Yes that is simpler, and would already work better than the current Level rooms, but it would bring its own unbalance to the table, since a deck is barely defined by its characters.

Certain cards in decks are worth more than the 3 characters combined - in terms of usefulness.

What are the witchblades without certain cards designed specifically for them?
What are the courtesans without certain cards designed specifically for them?

Maxed [card]Telendar[/card] should be worth more than maxed [card]Naya[/card], yet [card]Blade of the Witch[/card] worth more than [card]Fist Blade[/card]

A deck with Max WitchBlades but without WitchBlade Caste cards should be worth alot less than a deck with Lv1 WitchBlades and [card]Blade of the Witch[/card], [card]Ice Coffin[/card], etc.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (15-02-2011 16:26:59)

Nurvus · 12-06-2011 14:25:22

This suggestion was presented before the 5 fights limit in Training Rooms was removed.

But then daily quests were added, and we always have the weekly trophies.

I think this idea is now more important than it ever was.

If properly implemented, it allows players to play against decks with fairly similar quality, and reduce the amount of hopeless matchups everywhere.

Please discuss.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (12-06-2011 14:25:47)

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 02-12-2010 02:53:49

Grade Rooms

#2 02-12-2010 03:13:09

Re : Grade Rooms

#3 02-12-2010 03:26:56

Re : Grade Rooms

#4 02-12-2010 03:33:52

Re : Grade Rooms

#5 02-12-2010 10:38:50

Re : Grade Rooms

#6 02-12-2010 10:46:36

Re : Grade Rooms

#7 13-01-2011 19:16:25

Re : Grade Rooms

#8 16-01-2011 02:39:03

Re : Grade Rooms

#9 17-01-2011 04:22:06

Re : Grade Rooms

#10 22-01-2011 16:52:06

Re : Grade Rooms

#11 24-01-2011 04:54:11

Re : Grade Rooms

#12 24-01-2011 06:34:57

Re : Grade Rooms

#13 15-02-2011 16:19:12

Re : Grade Rooms

#14 12-06-2011 14:25:22

Re : Grade Rooms

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