For quite some time [card]Apostle of Destiny[/card] and [card]Watchmaker of Destiny[/card] have been cards that become unsaleable once they hit level 3. This was tolerable, as people only needed one of each to unlock the last evolutions of certain characters. Now with the Mercenary trophies, requiring people to have two, it is going a little nuts.

The prices for Apostle of Destiny are still somewhat tolerable, she is an uncommon and rather easy to get. Watchmaker of Destiny, however, is a rare and it is becoming increasingly difficult for players to get their hands on a first, let alone a second copy. The Watchmaker's prices have skyrocketed and are now from an old average of about 20k, roaming at three digets (up to 250k?).

I know the marketprice is based on the players selling the card and players willing to spend the cash, and they can sell it for whatever, that is up to them. But getting to exaggerated hundreds of thousands for one rare card, is making this entire thing slightly out of control, in my opinion. How are newer players supposed to be able to fund and build up proper decks, if they cannot reach the final evolutions of some easy to get and somewhat decent characters, when they litterally have to spend all their deck finances on one character card?

I am sure those who got two watchmakers for the trophies, wouldn't mind being able to sell their second one. So I believe everybody would profit from such a change.

para · 05-01-2011 04:34:09

thank you very much for posting this. i went to check prices today on watchmaker and its 200k...wouldnt want it except is needed for telendar

asdfgadsfz12 · 05-01-2011 05:23:12

Cheaper to buy the card that needs Watchmaker instead of buying Watchmaker himself.

skinnyeddie · 05-01-2011 07:54:28

I don't really see why they need to require Watchmaker and Apostle to evolve those characters to their final upgrade. It's as if it wasn't difficult/expensive enough to get those characters in the first place. But if it's part of a system to generate money, then can they make Watchmaker uncommon just like Apostle? Then, allow players to sell the fully upgraded ones or provide an option to trade them in for a set reasonable amount of crystals.

bleachman · 05-01-2011 12:10:20

The reason why Apostle/Watchmaker are required for certain evolutions is story based, as far as I know. They have influence in the game's history and also help out certain characters by feeding them news from teh future, past or whatever. lol

Personally I would rather see more characters requiring them to upgrade, because I like the idea in general, but also, on the other hand, make them more accessable to everybody.

Papa_Frita · 06-01-2011 10:29:27

i personally don't see the problem since max lv chars are not expensive at all.. if one could be able to sell watchmaker ater evoing the pretended character, then they will appear a lot of big ass chars at max lv for sale..

abomination lv 6 for 300k is tolerable, since old price was about 600k.. but i don't want a world where this char is below 100k

and i also think it's ok to have some really difficult trophies.. the ones needing 2 watchamakers are now the most ridiculously difficult of them

Anihilate · 06-01-2011 15:31:41

Papa_Frita a écrit :

300k is tolerable

,

300k for a single card is only TOLERABLE, Granted Abomb was 600k before,thats a vast improvement. Here lies the problem, how many people do you know that can Drop 300k without a sweat? or 40k for telendar, or 75k for lord Gakyusha?

300k is THE MOST anywone should have to spend on any single card(excluding legendaries) at this point in the game, seeing a card skyrocket from 20k to 200k in a matter of weeks is unacceptable.

The market itself however, is sick. Only a select few characters can get sold at high amounts, and since the level 1 to 3 pricing has a much smaller range now, the cards lose resale value, as well as a greatly decrease amount of crystals in the hands of players who sell cards to get more crystals. People are going to go broke eventually, and one of two things will happen.

1) Prices will be forced to drop since a large amount of potential buyers can't make crystals anymore

2) This game will die as only the top end players will have enough money to regulate get what they need.

Even while buying feez and packs, this market is dying, because I don't know how many people can drop $30 into this game every week or so, or want to sit through hours of free feez surveys, but I can bet they are in the minority. End of circulation, Market crashes for the poor and gets dominated by the wealthy.

Dernière modification par Anihilate (06-01-2011 15:40:01)

ledeir · 06-01-2011 16:23:59

I agree completely with the statements that the market is sick...
(I was actually just about to post a suggestion relating to it... one that I expect older players will hate, but newer players will love...)

Anihilate · 06-01-2011 16:40:33

ledeir a écrit :

I agree completely with the statements that the market is sick...
(I was actually just about to post a suggestion relating to it... one that I expect older players will hate, but newer players will love...)

All of the people I associate with are level 16+, and don't have a stick up their ass. I'm level 18 myself. We all agree the market is dying.

ledeir · 06-01-2011 16:50:30

Anihilate a écrit :

ledeir a écrit :
I agree completely with the statements that the market is sick...
(I was actually just about to post a suggestion relating to it... one that I expect older players will hate, but newer players will love...)
All of the people I associate with are level 16+, and don't have a stick up their ass. I'm level 18 myself. We all agree the market is dying.

Really?
Then I may not get as many flames as I expect from my suggestion...
The gist of it being tiered taxes based on sales price to remove crystals from the economy and drive down prices as a whole.

http://forum.eredan.com/viewtopic.php?id=13770

Anihilate · 06-01-2011 17:07:28

There are a few Hardasses that will complain, but I doubt anyone with the [MSN] tag will complain.

Papa_Frita · 06-01-2011 18:17:09

Anihilate a écrit :

Papa_Frita a écrit :
300k is tolerable
,
300k for a single card is only TOLERABLE, Granted Abomb was 600k before,thats a vast improvement. Here lies the problem, how many people do you know that can Drop 300k without a sweat? or 40k for telendar, or 75k for lord Gakyusha?
300k is THE MOST anywone should have to spend on any single card(excluding legendaries) at this point in the game, seeing a card skyrocket from 20k to 200k in a matter of weeks is unacceptable.
The market itself however, is sick. Only a select few characters can get sold at high amounts, and since the level 1 to 3 pricing has a much smaller range now, the cards lose resale value, as well as a greatly decrease amount of crystals in the hands of players who sell cards to get more crystals. People are going to go broke eventually, and one of two things will happen.
1) Prices will be forced to drop since a large amount of potential buyers can't make crystals anymore
2) This game will die as only the top end players will have enough money to regulate get what they need.
Even while buying feez and packs, this market is dying, because I don't know how many people can drop $30 into this game every week or so, or want to sit through hours of free feez surveys, but I can bet they are in the minority. End of circulation, Market crashes for the poor and gets dominated by the wealthy.

why 300k is the most you have to spend for a card? a newbie has his own posibilities. if you want a 300k card, ho buy cheap lv 1 chars, evo them and will make the enough crystals in about a month... that sounds fair, since evoing such card may take a lot more than a month.

you think the game will die because you compare the actual market from the market we used to have when exp was low... market is still regulating.. they exp thing was a tricky thing they did to us and we still don't understand the consequences of it. no particular person or people are controlloing the market. that's impossible, you would need a really big amount of crystals, which no one has. probably you made an attemp, since i remember buying from you a lot of cards when i needed. every card i wanted to get, Annhilate was selling 3 o 4 copies of that ^^

anyway, the problem here is that the gained exp doesn't fit to the market we have. i'm sure feerik was waiting for it's regulation but that's not happening at all. bad for them and for us, the exp is the only thing they cannot test inside doors. users have to deal with it, like we are dealing now.

Dernière modification par Papa_Frita (06-01-2011 18:17:44)

ledeir · 06-01-2011 18:46:44

Papa_Frita a écrit :

why 300k is the most you have to spend for a card? a newbie has his own posibilities. if you want a 300k card, ho buy cheap lv 1 chars, evo them and will make the enough crystals in about a month... that sounds fair, since evoing such card may take a lot more than a month.

Indeed, that _sounds_ fair but I'm not so sure it is.
You need to consider the less tangible concepts like fun.

Speaking from personal experience, I have been experimenting with what you suggest. I'm leveling up low level characters to try and get a handful of decent cards.

Really its just making me enjoy the game less... Since the point is to save crystals I can't make any significant improvements to my existing deck because that works counter to my goal... So basically I'm entering a bunch of random games in which I'm clearly outclassed. Its just a major deterrent, and since I started trying this the amount of games I have actually been playing has decreased dramatically due to lack of interest...

And the real kicker is I'm not even earning many crystal from it... The market is still absorbing the double xp gain like you mentioned.

Now, I know you can toss out various counter arguments like "play with similarly decked friends" or what not... But really its an online game... Part of the fun is all the other players. A key thing is being able to grind away at leveling while still having fun...

Putting that aside for now though... The key point I take from this thread is that the price on the market is increasing... That's a trend which is not going change without a massive influx of new players and loss of old players or something to remove more crystals from the economy... Everyone receives at least 250 crystals a day... That's probably around 1M added to the economy daily. The amount of crystals which are removed on the other hand is probably much less... 10% of all sales and a little extra from the shop.

Anihilate · 06-01-2011 21:31:37

Papa_Frita a écrit :

Anihilate a écrit :
Papa_Frita a écrit :
300k is tolerable
,
300k for a single card is only TOLERABLE, Granted Abomb was 600k before,thats a vast improvement. Here lies the problem, how many people do you know that can Drop 300k without a sweat? or 40k for telendar, or 75k for lord Gakyusha?
300k is THE MOST anywone should have to spend on any single card(excluding legendaries) at this point in the game, seeing a card skyrocket from 20k to 200k in a matter of weeks is unacceptable.
The market itself however, is sick. Only a select few characters can get sold at high amounts, and since the level 1 to 3 pricing has a much smaller range now, the cards lose resale value, as well as a greatly decrease amount of crystals in the hands of players who sell cards to get more crystals. People are going to go broke eventually, and one of two things will happen.
1) Prices will be forced to drop since a large amount of potential buyers can't make crystals anymore
2) This game will die as only the top end players will have enough money to regulate get what they need.
Even while buying feez and packs, this market is dying, because I don't know how many people can drop $30 into this game every week or so, or want to sit through hours of free feez surveys, but I can bet they are in the minority. End of circulation, Market crashes for the poor and gets dominated by the wealthy.
why 300k is the most you have to spend for a card? a newbie has his own posibilities. if you want a 300k card, ho buy cheap lv 1 chars, evo them and will make the enough crystals in about a month... that sounds fair, since evoing such card may take a lot more than a month.
you think the game will die because you compare the actual market from the market we used to have when exp was low... market is still regulating.. they exp thing was a tricky thing they did to us and we still don't understand the consequences of it. no particular person or people are controlloing the market. that's impossible, you would need a really big amount of crystals, which no one has. probably you made an attemp, since i remember buying from you a lot of cards when i needed. every card i wanted to get, Annhilate was selling 3 o 4 copies of that ^^
anyway, the problem here is that the gained exp doesn't fit to the market we have. i'm sure feerik was waiting for it's regulation but that's not happening at all. bad for them and for us, the exp is the only thing they cannot test inside doors. users have to deal with it, like we are dealing now.

The only characters that effectively move are cards like prophet and telendar, the gain from selling these cards is no longer 15-30k, more like 10-15k, so upgrading to sell is very impractical because of the hike in level 1 cards and the drop in end level cards. Look at ergue, it used to be 15k, 20k max, now he sits there for 50k+ The price of Abomination should have gone down,which it did, but the price of ergue shouldn't have shot up to 300% of its prior shelf cost. Abomination used to cost 40k to make, and sold for 600k at level 5, now he costs 110-120k and sells for 300k. That sound player friendly?

So, say you take 3-4 days to evo 3 characters to max, you bought those characters for about 1k each, you post, someone undercuts you, you undercut them, your card drops to 10k. You make 8k from each character, 24k from 3k, nice, but if no one wants those characters, you just wasted 3k. Also, deduct what it takes to make the characters that sell at decent prices, apostle of destiny is now 3k average, watchmaker Borders 200k, think about that, a card you need to make characters to sell that will make you a REAL profit are 200k, and thats before buying the 25-50k card you need to train and sell for only 15-25% more than what it costs. Telendar 1 runs for around 30k, telendar 3 sells for around 40k, you net 6k crystals.

Feez are another issue that I've already posted about/

As for you getting the cards you needed from me: Think about that. All of the cards you needed, I was selling. I could probably gas a million if my entire collection sold, but I only sell the things I really defer from. So, my sales have nothing to do with what is being said, because I DO sell a load of cards every month, and this suggestion ledier made WILL hurt my sales and profit, but if it pans out to make the game have better playability for new people, and for everyone, so be it. I can't control the market myself and I never tried, only sold things at prices I thought was reasonable. The market is still regulating, but at a much slower level.

Edit:
You purchased from me:2 Tadaa for 25k each, 2 clonings for 5k each, and obesity for 12k. I bought those tadaas for 13k, the clonings I made for 2k, and the obesity was a gluttony I bought for 4k. I make my money off of being a shark more than evoing.

Dernière modification par Anihilate (06-01-2011 21:37:34)

Papa_Frita · 06-01-2011 21:41:52

ledeir a écrit :

Papa_Frita a écrit :
why 300k is the most you have to spend for a card? a newbie has his own posibilities. if you want a 300k card, ho buy cheap lv 1 chars, evo them and will make the enough crystals in about a month... that sounds fair, since evoing such card may take a lot more than a month.
Indeed, that _sounds_ fair but I'm not so sure it is.
You need to consider the less tangible concepts like fun.
Speaking from personal experience, I have been experimenting with what you suggest. I'm leveling up low level characters to try and get a handful of decent cards.
Really its just making me enjoy the game less... Since the point is to save crystals I can't make any significant improvements to my existing deck because that works counter to my goal... So basically I'm entering a bunch of random games in which I'm clearly outclassed. Its just a major deterrent, and since I started trying this the amount of games I have actually been playing has decreased dramatically due to lack of interest...
And the real kicker is I'm not even earning many crystal from it... The market is still absorbing the double xp gain like you mentioned.
Now, I know you can toss out various counter arguments like "play with similarly decked friends" or what not... But really its an online game... Part of the fun is all the other players. A key thing is being able to grind away at leveling while still having fun...
Putting that aside for now though... The key point I take from this thread is that the price on the market is increasing... That's a trend which is not going change without a massive influx of new players and loss of old players or something to remove more crystals from the economy... Everyone receives at least 250 crystals a day... That's probably around 1M added to the economy daily. The amount of crystals which are removed on the other hand is probably much less... 10% of all sales and a little extra from the shop.

i cannot disagree with you.. it's true that game is becoming boring..
the purpose of the game is to play it, not tricking it with 123 evo to make a profit. it's insane. personally, i don't evo chars anymore, since in the "high exp week" my eyes almost poped out ^^

probably feerik is working on some solution.. they must be so much aware of the lack of new players than we are..

the problem here is, imho, that feerik pretended to benefit from the increase of exp. because it was obvious that evoing chars won't be a good choice anymore since it's easy to evo a char to it's max. the big spenders that used to buy max lv chars just dissapear. there's no use on spending a lot of crystals on a lv max card if you can do it yourself in a week or so. now we have to buy boosters or pay insane amounts of crystals to get a good card...

this went off their hands.. the situation atm is uncontrollable.. and we should expect a solution because this game is going nowhere.

Poptolev · 06-01-2011 21:53:05

Well they can always make it a sellable card in the store for .. let's say 50k ? Then no one will sell it for more then 50k because .. well .. no one would buy it. And if you buy one from the store - crystals leave the economy .. (not a lot, but imagine if they introduce a lot of similar cards in the store =/)

Anihilate · 06-01-2011 21:57:16

Poptolev a écrit :

Well they can always make it a sellable card in the store for .. let's say 50k ? Then no one will sell it for more then 50k because .. well .. no one would buy it. And if you buy one from the store - crystals leave the economy .. (not a lot, but imagine if they introduce a lot of similar cards in the store =/)

This is also a good idea, but Feerik can't really judge how much a card costs outside of what cards they only have in trophies. It depends on the player rating whether a card is useful or not, outside of characters alot of cards that are underrated are useful.

Poptolev · 06-01-2011 22:00:00

Since the market can't fix itself due to the low supply of high-tier cards the "country" (feerik) has to step in and regulate the prices (the above example is one good way) by increasing the supply (easily done in a virtual environment). If they can't decide I'll be happy to. I'll just need the average price (the one that it shows when you want to sell a card) for the last few months =/.

Dernière modification par Poptolev (06-01-2011 22:00:35)

Raeil · 07-01-2011 10:00:35

Seeing i'm new i can shed a bit of light into this conversation. I started Zil, because i thought they looked goth-ish, and pretty cool. I looked up the evolutions (interesting concept, pokemon~esqe), and see i need 2 Ergue cards, look in the shop, 56,500 crystals each. I thought about trying a couple boosters soon, because trying to save up for my new half baked Crow deck is gonna take 300 years. Especially when it's said i need two Tsume cards (6,300 each roughly), and 2 wakazashi, (44,000 each roughly) Not to mention the Malyss card,(around 3,500) and a few assorted actions and spells. Those 5 cards alone add up to around 101k-102k market depending. So i have to grind at a majority of 20-50 crystals a match,(mainly 20 ): ) against buying opponents that have amazingly better built sets, at 3 levels lower than my own.
As i posted a little while ago. I'm level 10, i random challenge a level 9. I have a level 3 Karasu Kage, level 3 Gan'so, and level 2 Oogoe Kage. The only other two cards i have worth mentioning is my one Karajutsu, and the Adventure card i got for the challenge. For the record i bought these at level 1, though i got lucky, and got my Oogue at level 2 for around 900 crystals, (killing my savings >.<)taking the place of my Sen'ryaku i leveled from 1. Anyways. My fun opponent has a Level 3 Councilor Ashaia, a level 2 Apostle of Destiny, and a level 4 Pilkim. That's not to also mention the unreal max levels spells he was slinging too. Kills the fun a bit.
I decided when building my Crow deck, (i originally planned on a The Pack Deck) i looked up build suggestions. It was funny to me to read posts that say: "You need 3 {inset card name here}, they're only 20k each!" That should only take me 3-5 years to afford 3 of the seventeen cards i need to stand half a chance of a draw, let alone win...
Please don't think i'm saying give me free uber amazing cards. I don't mind working for what i have. But there's a point of working for it, and a two steps forward, 4 steps back effect that's happening right now.

Dernière modification par Raeil (07-01-2011 10:16:04)

Anihilate · 07-01-2011 13:29:09

Poptolev a écrit :

Since the market can't fix itself due to the low supply of high-tier cards the "country" (feerik) has to step in and regulate the prices (the above example is one good way) by increasing the supply (easily done in a virtual environment). If they can't decide I'll be happy to. I'll just need the average price (the one that it shows when you want to sell a card) for the last few months =/.

Average isn't the way to do it, you have to factor in that pirates that are running for 1-10k still have an average of 30-45k. Just as well the sales of foil cards distort the average, last week the average price for Unleash hell was 7k when most of them posted were around 4.

Poptolev · 07-01-2011 13:33:30

Anihilate a écrit :

Poptolev a écrit :
Since the market can't fix itself due to the low supply of high-tier cards the "country" (feerik) has to step in and regulate the prices (the above example is one good way) by increasing the supply (easily done in a virtual environment). If they can't decide I'll be happy to. I'll just need the average price (the one that it shows when you want to sell a card) for the last few months =/.
Average isn't the way to do it, you have to factor in that pirates that are running for 1-10k still have an average of 30-45k. Just as well the sales of foil cards distort the average, last week the average price for Unleash hell was 7k when most of them posted were around 4.

Who said I'm going to use averages o.O. Oh wait .. I did .. nevermind that part. There is an average price daily if you use that minus the effect of inflation and trends (the trophies and stuff) etc etc ...

The price can be calculated with something similar to mass of money circulating ingame/"calculated value of the card". Simply because when there are more money the price raises. For example if there are 2m crystals in game and the watchmaker costs 100k at the market, when there are 4m crystals circulating if the demand of the watchmaker is the same the price will raise ~200k (from 180 to 220k for example, there are a lot of things to consider, not only the mass of the money). But anyways having the "real value" of the card will help a lot. The market value is based on the mass of the money + the demand + the real value (which changes with demand but it's still a valuable piece of information).

Dernière modification par Poptolev (07-01-2011 13:42:45)

Proximus · 07-01-2011 13:43:01

This discussion is loosing focus on the Watchmaker issue and becomes another "cards are too expensive" thing. It's pretty clear right now that if you're f2p, you won't easily get those good (ultra) rares. If you buy some packs, chances are you're going to open some 40k+ crystal cards and you're fit for playing the market, which, at the moment, is a lot more profitable than leveling chars.
I've offered some suggestions already in this post: http://forum.eredan.com/viewtopic.php?id=12893&p=1, fact is, if you use your brain, you can profit a lot, regardless of how much cards cost. I've sold my Blades of the Witch overnight for around 18k crystals net profit each since those increased in demand due to the new trophy.
Anyway, regarding the Watchmaker - this is a special case and something needs to be done about it. Having a 170k+ entry barrier (by today's market price) for getting some core characters to max level is just a way of telling new players to either spend a lot of money or look for another game. When I started out, 25k seemed a lot for a useless character and I can imagine how demotivating it must be by today's price. The real problem here is that it is too easy to monopolize since those are absorbed by your collection at high level. If a cheap Watchmaker shows up on the market, it's more realistic that a good trader buys it for re-selling purpose than a new player who really needs it. The traders are not the problem, only the system that supports it. So...the idea of re-selling (surplus) Watchmakers would ease the situation a lot. Poptolev's idea of making it available for fixed 50k is also a good solution, that would still net you 40k+ crystals if you open one in a pack.

Poptolev · 07-01-2011 13:53:02

Proximus a écrit :

This discussion is loosing focus on the Watchmaker issue and becomes another "cards are too expensive" thing.

Fixing the bigger problem will fix the small (economy > tempus cards) they are connected ... If the OP agrees they have to lock this one because any suggestions about "fixing" the economy will fix this problem as well ...

kappa1uk · 10-01-2011 16:27:19

A VERY simple solution to the watchmaker problem is to boycott them

JUST DONT BUY THEM.

This will eventually bring the prices down - wouldnt take too long. BUt "OH NO" people are willing to spend 200k on a card thats REAL worth is about 40k - its crazy - and the blame is solely on the shoulders of the players that have the most crystals and zero patience.

Now I am a paying player, that has some crazy good decks worth a tonne of crystals - i think i averaged out my collection at about 3.5 million value. Will I buy a watchmaker for 200k - HELL NO ( And i REALLY need two of these cards to finish of both merc trophies, and to level up my abom to max). Ill either pull one from a booster or ill go without. If everyone had this same mentality the price would regulate itself pretty quickly. So you may need that watchmaker now - but hold off from buying it for a week or so (im sure if you can afford 200k crystals for one, you already have some pretty decent decks going on) and see its price drop.

Happy Days.

P.S. Noz Mages Forever.

Poptolev · 10-01-2011 16:37:33

kappa1uk a écrit :

This will eventually bring the prices down - wouldnt take too long. BUt "OH NO" people are willing to spend 200k on a card thats REAL worth is about 40k - its crazy - and the blame is solely on the shoulders of the players that have the most crystals and zero patience.

Real worth is the price that people are willing to spend on it, not the price you are willing to spend on it. If they want to buy it for 200k the real price is somewhere around it.

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 05-01-2011 04:05:33

Make the Destiny Duo (Watchmaker and Apostle) saleable

#2 05-01-2011 04:34:09

Re : Make the Destiny Duo (Watchmaker and Apostle) saleable

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#9 06-01-2011 16:40:33

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#19 07-01-2011 10:00:35

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#20 07-01-2011 13:29:09

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#21 07-01-2011 13:33:30

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#22 07-01-2011 13:43:01

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#24 10-01-2011 16:27:19

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