Logic:
1 - Courtesans were designed to have 2 guilds each (4 for Ishaia) when the game had 5 guilds, including Mercenaries.
2 - [card]Councilor Ishaia[/card] has its powerful Order Bonus & special ability, and will not become any less Legendary if the other Courtesans become more "influent".
3 - Once powerful key Courtesan cards that depend on guild sharing, like [card]Manipulation[/card] or [card]Tea Ceremony[/card], are now gimmicky and on the brink of uselessness.
4 - Currently there are 8 guilds, including Mercenaries.
5 - Even assuming that Nehantists are not meant to be influenced by Courtesans, there are 2 guilds more than back when the majority of the Courtesan caste was designed.
6 - Cards are becoming more powerful overall.
7 - Releasing Courtesan cards that require your character to share a guild with the opposing character is becoming unviable.
---

If it is found that Courtesans should indeed be given a 3rd Guild, it could either be done:
- Retroactively, like when Feerik gave the Compendium Caste to Alishk, Marlok the Repentant and Aerouant the Crystalomancer;
- or by adding a new Upgrade to each Courtesan - except Ishaia - that does nothing but grant a new Guild.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (17-06-2011 00:11:40)

Rathedan · 17-06-2011 00:52:22

How do you fix things like potion of seduction to not be op with 3 guilds though?

Manip doesnt totally suffer, but tea ceremony does for sure, but the small time cards (three cheers, potions etc) get out of hand with 3 guilds IMO

Nurvus · 17-06-2011 01:23:57

Whatever OP'ness there may be with [card]Potion of Seduction[/card], Ishaia is the main abuser.

[card]Potion of Seduction[/card] was designed for Ishaia...
...and if it needs a limit, it certainly will not be due to my suggestion - and it can easily be changed like other cards have been in the past - be it in the form of a Limit or even redesigned (nothing wrong with it) to give +1 Defense plus another +1 for every 2 guilds your character is associated to = +3 to Ishaia, +2 to the rest.

[card]Versatility[/card] needs an Update, possibly in the form of a second Upgrade (by merging it to some unreleased card) to add Sap Heart and Pirates to it, specially since although [card]Mylad[/card] is in the card, neither Pirates nor Sap Hearts (both her guilds) benefit from it.

[card]Overwhelming Victory[/card] needs an update to grant benefits to the other guilds that have Courtesans (Sap Heart and Pirates).

Both Versatility and Overwhelming Victory might not need update if my suggestion was implemented since all Courtesans would benefit from at least 1 of the effects, even Mylad.

[card]Three Cheers for our Champ[/card] is in a just as bad situation as [card]Tea Ceremony[/card] - either your opponent is of the right guilds, or the card is useless - and the moment someone dies, Three Cheers becomes weaker.
---
[card]Manipulation[/card] totally suffers.
The cards coming out are very powerful, with Caste-specific cards even more so.
Some old cards deserve a nerf - but Guild-related Courtesan cards are suffering double because of the increase in Guilds.
---

In sum, maybe my suggestion will be worth implementing when a new Guild comes out, because at that point I suspect the cards mentioned in this thread will stop being used completely, except for Ishaia and her Potions of Seduction.

Adding a Guild to Courtesans is completely Lore-friendly. It makes sense that as more Guilds come out, the Courtesans try to establish more connections and expand their influence.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (17-06-2011 01:53:05)

Haku-Men · 17-06-2011 02:34:57

as my view on it, courtesans seem to be doing fine in the long run, i haven't seem to be lacking at all. they are still annoying and really i dont see in any point of touching them

jackal19 · 17-06-2011 02:53:29

But still pirate and sap courts need to be supported by versatility,Ov and of course council's decision just to be a bit fair and be useful.

Nurvus · 17-06-2011 04:11:11

Some Courtesan decks still work, ofcourse, but have you noticed wich Courtesan characters are getting any use?

With so many guilds - and more coming in the future, I'm sure - it'll come to a point where Manipulation is either fair in general and overpowered against certain guilds, or underpowered in general and fair against certain guilds.

The same holds true for Three Cheers for Our Champ and Tea Ceremony.
---

Overwhelming Victory and Versatility create a tiny group of Courtesan combinations, given the shrinking viable setups.

Nurvus · 17-06-2011 15:34:11

I think Feerik stands to gain by changing cards - not in a way that makes players stop using them, but the other way around.

Changing cards is bad if it makes them useless all of a sudden - that is indeed dangerous and players may feel like nothing they own is really certain.

Instead, caring for the usefulness of every card will only make players feel like their investment is retroactively valued.

There's no reason to be afraid of changing cards - and actually, Feerik isn't scared of it at all.
The team has changed cards countless times. Gave them Unique status, gave them AoE status, outright nerfing them, and otherwise change the way they work to make the game more balanced.
---

Even if Earth Armor was decent at some point in the history of Eredan, now the game is infested with powerful armor, and between discarding 4 cards with [card]Earth Armor[/card] and simply playing [card]Runic Gauntlet[/card], wich would you do?

Feerik could change the text of Earth Armor to say "(rounded up)" and/or "Activates immediately.", yet they haven't.

I don't have my hopes up for this suggestion, but hey, I may be totally wrong, somehow.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (19-06-2011 22:31:23)

Ryel · 02-08-2011 21:59:24

I don't see you point.

Courtisans are fun, they aren't competitive without Ishaia, but they are fun, and have great combinations in deck construction.

They can use much more card than any normal character include golems and guelemites.

They have very good combinative chain cards. They have very good permanent action cards.

I think they are okay this way, and yes, some characters cant use every caste specific cards as good than others, but name any caste where every character can maximize the effect of caste specific cards.

MrLordi92 · 02-08-2011 22:28:17

Ryel a écrit :

I don't see you point.
Courtisans are fun, they aren't competitive without Ishaia, but they are fun, and have great combinations in deck construction.
They can use much more card than any normal character include golems and guelemites.
They have very good combinative chain cards. They have very good permanent action cards.
I think they are okay this way, and yes, some characters cant use every caste specific cards as good than others, but name any caste where every character can maximize the effect of caste specific cards.

I'm with this guy, and somewhat with you, OP.

I love the way Sitar Hero works, mostly because one of my first good decks were Courtesans, back before Sap Hearts were released. Is it competitive? Not really, no, but it's still fun to play.

But I can somewhat see OP's point. I couldn't give two flying monkey mud-pies about Ishaia. I can't afford her, so I don't care. If anything, as happy she's banned as I am that Jace and Stoneforge Mystic are in Magic (If anyone plays that.)

Making new Courts would be good, obviously including the new guilds The last one's we got were what? Mylad, Psalm, and Dandy? Also, maybe making Overwhelming Victory include the new guilds (as well as Versatility and Council's Decision.) would make them much more playable.

But the idea of three guilds is just ludicrous. That's far too OP. Now, while I can't think of specific interaction (I'm not a living card dictionary.) I foresee some crazy interactions with Courts if they had three guilds. And just saying, for the deckbuilders out there, could you imagine putting the new armor that makes you chain guild cards with a three guild Court?

goscar · 03-08-2011 16:56:38

I say no, giving them 3rd guild will most likely break them. As to things like overwhelming victory/versatility getting a change seems like the right thing to do. Manipulation is fine as is. But in all likely hood, old cards won't be changed even though it doesnt take much to do....

Dernière modification par goscar (03-08-2011 17:02:31)

MrLordi92 · 03-08-2011 19:18:25

goscar a écrit :

I say no, giving them 3rd guild will most likely break them. As to things like overwhelming victory/versatility getting a change seems like the right thing to do. Manipulation is fine as is. But in all likely hood, old cards won't be changed even though it doesnt take much to do....

No, they won't be changed, the old cards I mean. What they could do is give them a new evolution, perhaps, which includes the new guilds. The only problem with that is the collectors Overwhelming Victory would only be able to be used with the four oldest guilds (minus Mercs.)

Nurvus · 03-08-2011 19:28:46

A 3rd guild might break them now.

However, more Caste/class-specific cards are being released, and more powerful as times goes on.

Even with an extra guild, the amount of useful cards a Courtesan can use that are on pair with the "new awesome cards" is very restricted due to the abundance of caste/class restrictions out there.

At some point, it will become viable to give Courtesans a 3rd guild, as they will otherwise be uncompetitive, and most likely useless.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (03-08-2011 19:29:31)

Rathedan · 03-08-2011 19:37:58

OV is fine as is anyway, especially if new guilds are added to cards.

What needs to be introduced is a new style OV, one that covers the other guilds and thier affiliates.

Basically a new style OV with Noz, Sap, Pirate, and Koto.

Keeping it to a limited guild supply allows options. Cramming everything onto one card lacks ingenuity and style.

Also, gonna wade into this a bit:

Upgrading existing cards isn't the option. Introducing new, 3-guild meta-courts to integrate with what's already here is.

ie:

1) You can't play Dandy,Psalm, and Kimiko together to make a killer Sitar hero deck. This is because all three don't share a base guild.

Fix that. Make a Sap/Koto/Noz character, one who either is themselves unknown class, or boosts unknown class support.

2) Court mages are horrible. You have Mylad and Marlok (and Ish, but that's out of the debate). No use for philisophical debate, no use of the class.

Solution? Make a Noz/Pirate/Sap mage character. Make the build thrive on Lightning spells, mixing Noz and Pirate lightning into the mix. Drop thier spirit low and zap em.

3) Pirate courts are non-existant. Not that it matters much, given pirate decks are nearly non existant. So are marauders.

Make a third meta court based in Pirates. Make it a Pirate/Zil/Nomad Marauder.

Then, make some cards to fit into the decks to make them have more synergy.

With these three, all of a sudden, new possibilities for not only full-court decks appear, but the ability to mix and match guilds as needed.

You don;t need to modify old cards (which won't happen anyway), what you need to do is include cards that'll take the old ones to new possibilities.

Glasher · 04-08-2011 00:07:48

The only thing I would like to point out is that even with the expansion of guilds the core guilds remain most dominant. I simply feel people have not dove deep enough into a strategy that remains as strong as they once were now. Fixing this doesn't require changing old cards but simply implementing characters with other guild combinations. To my knowledge only Pirate/Zil and Sap Zil are missing.

I personally feel Sap Hearts never deserved a courtesan. As I understood it they were relatively unknown and thought more of legends and myths, what place did they ever hold on a council. Same goes for Pirates.

IDK...I never felt courtesans were ever lacking. I rather enjoyed the balance remained when your primary guild set up faced adversity and still became triumphant.

Ryel · 04-08-2011 10:51:33

I've played Eredan for two months but I've played bazzillions of tactical card games since 98 so I have some though about this topic.

I thought the main concept of courtisans of their versality and flexibility.

So I would like to see new courtisans not three guild monsters.

There are 58 valid combination of pure courtisan decks without Ishaia, and some of them are very funny and relative good. (Hasna-Kimiko-Angelica, Galmara-Ooge-X, and the Sitar hero versions).

They also have very good cards.

Say any non-courtisan card what...

-give you +2 defense and chain (Tatamijutsu doesn't work if you have item, Disagreement rise the enemy defense too)
-do direct not magic area damage what are only avoidable by Jorusians and Disappaerence (Storm, but it is unique and damage your characters too)
-permanently lower all enemy attack or spirit what usually main source of the damage
-give one or more than one permanent bonus to all of your characters (Lunation for Pack)
-give possibly +5 attack in the first turn for one hit kill (+10 with Time to Die +7 with Voodoo)

Okay courtisan cards have some restrictions, but I think its okay, because because every guild and every caste has advantages and drawbacks and you have to choice to raise your advantages or try to lower your drawbacks when you build a deck.

Just my two cents...

Lulosaurio · 04-08-2011 18:30:30

Well, the problem with courtesans is that they need buildup to be able to win, and this days characters get 18-20 attack on almost any guild.

Power creep is too big, and the design of courtesans makes them weaker every time a new guild is released.

Nurvus · 04-08-2011 19:43:40

Let's be honest.

How many competitive Court decks are there with their Core based on:
- Desert Nomads?
- Zil?
- Pirates?

Who uses Hasna anymore?
Who uses Angelica anymore?

Even if you talk of bridging certain guilds like pirate-kotoba/zil/desert or sap-desert, you still aren't getting to the point.

I understand what Rathedan said about instead of giving +1 guild to Overwhelming Victory, for example, creating a card for a "different combination of guilds".

That still limits things alot, because OV has 4 guilds. The other card will most certainly overlap - and that will mean a certain combo of guilds will be even stronger in terms of buffs, as Courts.

Note: In my 2nd post, however, I did mention OV and Versatility might not need changing if a guild was added to Courts.

Adding a single Guild to each Courtesan except Ishaia, will actually boost the ideology you speak of, Rathedan - because you won't be so prone to make a card that benefits 1 or 2 decks exclusively.

- You will still be able to design cards for single or double guilds, if you wish.
- You will also be able to design cards that affect all guilds.
- OV will still be useful among all those cards, instead of fading away as better cards come along.
- Tea Ceremony will be less gimmicky.
- You will be able to design those decks you mentioned, if for example Mylad becomes Sap-Noz-Pirate; Marlok might become Noz-Zil-Pirate; etc

Dernière modification par Nurvus (04-08-2011 19:50:56)

Lulosaurio · 04-08-2011 23:23:32

3 guilds isn't a really good idea, you must consider that being part of a guild allows access to very powerfull cards, its not just "OV and versatility will be better".

If you add Nomads to some courts, they gain solaris for example, and doing that to EVERY courtesan would be extremely hard to balance as there are many court combinations and with a 3rd guild there would be even more.

I think Courtesans should keep their guilds, unban ishaia removing the +1 to ice wall and make their cards better.

Anihilate · 06-08-2011 00:56:16

How about just giving older Courts a Caste outside of Ishaia as they did with Marlok?

Nurvus · 06-08-2011 15:03:37

Lulosaurio a écrit :

3 guilds isn't a really good idea, you must consider that being part of a guild allows access to very powerfull cards, its not just "OV and versatility will be better".
If you add Nomads to some courts, they gain solaris for example, and doing that to EVERY courtesan would be extremely hard to balance as there are many court combinations and with a 3rd guild there would be even more.

I think Courtesans should keep their guilds, unban ishaia removing the +1 to ice wall and make their cards better.

You are extrapolating exagerated notions.
You say it'd be powerful for "some Courts to gain Solaris"?
Who plays Desert Nomad courts competitively at the moment? No one.
If giving Desert Nomad guilds (and with it access to Solaris) to more Courts made Desert Nomad Courts competitive, isn't that the goal, anyway?

You seem to be forgetting that what was once overpowered or powerful is becoming weaker every new release.

Courtesans are no longer powerful due to their multi-guild. That advantage is disappearing.
Why? Because the new -powerful- cards are all Caste specific!

Soon there will be nothing to fear from adding a 3rd Guild to all dual-guild Courtesans - and that's if it isn't the case already...

---
No character in the game should be useless or obsolete.

Dernière modification par Nurvus (06-08-2011 15:09:59)

MrLordi92 · 06-08-2011 16:29:02

Nurvus a écrit :

No character in the game should be useless or obsolete.

Then why not ask for them to make older, significantly more useless cards better? Like [card]Saphyra[/card] and [card]Aryhpas[/card]. Both terrible cards, easily worse than any Courtesan. Or maybe [card]Ryouken[/card]? Why not ask them for something to make him better? Maybe something to fuse him with to make a cool new Kotoba?

[card]Malika[/card] is by far the worse Nomad. I'd rather play [card]Kroub[/card]. So why aren't you backing these single, bad cards? Instead you're backing a caste that isn't doing terrible. Courtesan's aren't the worst thing to play. It's stronger than some other decks I've seen played in Elo.

All I'm saying is, if you truly believe 'No character in the game should be useless or obsolete,' then why not work on single characters first, instead of an entire caste?

[/twocents]

Dernière modification par MrLordi92 (06-08-2011 16:29:20)

Nurvus · 06-08-2011 21:18:30

I would suggest all of that.
However, this is a suggestion about Courtesans.

You go make a topic about some other characters you think need fixing.

I am here talking specifically about Courtesan cards that deal with sharing guilds with opponent, etc, and how those Courtesan types are decaying rapidly.

And I don't just criticize, I actually suggest a sollution and explain why I strongly believe it works, and why it isn't something that's bound to be clear from the start.

You have to see the bigger picture and the ramifications of the act.

Glasher · 06-08-2011 23:41:59

The biggest limitation and problem with ne of the courtesan suggestions is the story line. It has been made very clear they have no intention of straying from it. With that said all you can really do is hope in a future act certain guilds become a part of the council, or a separate council and maybe a new war starts.

I personally would like to see the stone burst into pieces and guilds set allies working to gather the most parts, making certain guilds betray, defect, etc. Each guild has a piece of the stone somehow and in an effort to recollect them they band together each with there own intentions on how or what to do with all the pieces.

MrLordi92 · 06-08-2011 23:50:35

I know exactly what this thread is about. Is there a rule about bringing up my own two cents on something you said about how no character should be useless or obsolete? I was unaware of such a rule.

And making Courtesan's have three guilds isn't a solution, or at least it shouldn't be. As I said before in earlier comments, that's a terribly broken idea. What I think would be better idea, and I believe someone already said it, would be changing how Courtesans come together in a deck, I.E not needing a base guild. So a Nomad/Kotoba, Kotoba/Noz, and a Noz/Zil can be in the same team. This, however, won't fix the issue.

Plus, you couldn't give the existing characters three guilds. Story-wise, it makes absolutely no sense. Randomly making Hasna a pirate doesn't fit. Plus, you can't really make a Courtesan be a Nehant, since Nehants are sort of.... Evil? Even the Mercs don't want anything to do with them, and they put up with the Zil's.

Feerik would have to make all new Courtesan's, and who's to say they aren't? There hasn't been a Court update since Dandy, Psalm, and Sitar Hero, don't you think maybe, perhaps, they're getting up to one?

So, Nurvus, don't expect Feerik to just go ahead and slap on a new guild to their existing Courts. They'd sooner make new ones.

Lulosaurio · 07-08-2011 00:20:40

Maybe make a card like manipulation that works only if you DONT share a guild, that could be good

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 16-06-2011 23:59:10

Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#2 17-06-2011 00:52:22

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#3 17-06-2011 01:23:57

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#4 17-06-2011 02:34:57

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#5 17-06-2011 02:53:29

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#6 17-06-2011 04:11:11

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#7 17-06-2011 15:34:11

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#8 02-08-2011 21:59:24

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#9 02-08-2011 22:28:17

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#10 03-08-2011 16:56:38

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#11 03-08-2011 19:18:25

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#12 03-08-2011 19:28:46

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#13 03-08-2011 19:37:58

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#14 04-08-2011 00:07:48

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#15 04-08-2011 10:51:33

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#16 04-08-2011 18:30:30

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#17 04-08-2011 19:43:40

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#18 04-08-2011 23:23:32

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#19 06-08-2011 00:56:16

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#20 06-08-2011 15:03:37

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#21 06-08-2011 16:29:02

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#22 06-08-2011 21:18:30

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#23 06-08-2011 23:41:59

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#24 06-08-2011 23:50:35

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

#25 07-08-2011 00:20:40

Re : Increasing Nº of Guilds = 3rd Guild for Courtesans?

Pied de page des forums