Eredan's World

Lemant

Campeur

Inscription : 20-12-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

On the matter of [card]Ivory Bow[/card], my understanding of the "5 magic damage" is that the actual damage inflicted is:

5 - (target's current Spirit value) = Actual Damage Received from Magic Poison.

If I am correct, then using Ivory Bow on targets, such as Spirit-boosted Noz, whose Spirit is 5 or higher (via Action rather than Items) would be rather pointless.

How would I go about countering such opponents?  Play [card]Hypnotic Melody[/card] followed by barrage of arrow attacks and hope for the best or die trying?

jackal19

Gardien

Lieu : SDM

Inscription : 10-12-2010

Messages : 1 191

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

yes your magic poison will be pointless against high spirit characters but mages are quite squishy of course

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Lemant

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Inscription : 20-12-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

How many actual attacks do each of the following characters make in one turn if they are equipped with [card]Elfine Bow[/card]?

Do the additional attack(s), as stated in the card, stack on top of their racial traits for Elfines?

If my interpretation is correct, then it would seem that Melissandre and Chestnut get THREE attacks in one turn.  And it would also seem that each of those three attacks also inflict separate "damage spread" as a result of equipped [card]Elfine Bow[/card].

Am I right?  It would seem so, based on my literal interpretation of what's written on the card and Elfine racial trait(s) as stated on the Eredan Wiki website.

Ydiane, on the other hand, would receive only two attacks since she is a Guetemelite.  Or is she still considered an Elfine, thus the additional attack unique to Elfines still apply to her?

Ugh... I am so confused.  Somebody please enlighten and make my headache go away.

Sereaphim

Habitant de Guem

Inscription : 29-06-2011

Messages : 238

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

[card]Elfine Bow[/card] don t give more attacks ... it only spread the damage you deal.

And the race Elfines don t give you bonus atack it is only a race....
They get ONE extra atack from the power they have.
They only atack one time normal and then second time with their printed min atack and not 3 times.

They can only attack 3 times if you play a card that give extra atacks like [card]Quick draw[/card] or [card]Butterfly collar[/card].

And this has nothing to do if one charakter has Nature Guetemelite.
Nature Guetemelite give you only the power to play nature spells without be mage like [card]magic poison[/card].

Dernière modification par Sereaphim (26-12-2011 17:31:53)

Lemant

Campeur

Inscription : 20-12-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

Thank you for clearing that up, Sereaphim.  I could've sworn I read somewhere that all elfines receive an extra attack as a racial trait.  But now, I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Now, another question about the proposed deck in Post #5.  Since it takes a turn for a character to equip an Elfine Bow, what are the three characters supposed to do in the meantime besides watching their unarmed attacks bounce off (most likely) against high-defense Kotoba deck (Iro, Asahjiro, Gakyusha)?  Let's assume that none of the [card]Hypnotic Melody[/card](x3) are among the 5 cards at the beginning of the game.

karnoki

Habitant de Guem

Inscription : 20-11-2011

Messages : 216

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

Elfine deck.. So fun

[card]distracted[/card]    So important card.. sometimes may be it's useless however i suggest put it in your deck 2 or 3. (i put 3 because many decks buff df overhigh)

[card]hypnotic melody[/card] I suggest about 2-3 ... to make one shot combo and get chain

[card]Grand Hunt[/card] put 2 card.. although u have distracted and hypnotic melody, about simple reduce df should have in your deck

then The "elfine bow" and "ivory bow" for me, I put 2 for each

hibernation only 1.. to muck make junk in your hand.

quickdraw definitely 3

precision shot no more than 2.

something like this the other cards up to situation.

Lemant

Campeur

Inscription : 20-12-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

Elfine deck.. So fun

[card]distracted[/card]    So important card.. sometimes may be it's useless however i suggest put it in your deck 2 or 3. (i put 3 because many decks buff df overhigh)

[card]hypnotic melody[/card] I suggest about 2-3 ... to make one shot combo and get chain

[card]Grand Hunt[/card] put 2 card.. although u have distracted and hypnotic melody, about simple reduce df should have in your deck

then The "elfine bow" and "ivory bow" for me, I put 2 for each

hibernation only 1.. to muck make junk in your hand.

quickdraw definitely 3

precision shot no more than 2.

something like this the other cards up to situation.

Others have commented that [card]Distracted[/card] is "slow".  Judging by their context, I presume they were referring to the time between the turn the card is deployed and the turn the card is activated.  Is my guess correct?  The description on the card says nothing that would lead me to suspect its effect would be anything other than immediate...

jackal19

Gardien

Lieu : SDM

Inscription : 10-12-2010

Messages : 1 191

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

Elfine deck.. So fun

[card]distracted[/card]    So important card.. sometimes may be it's useless however i suggest put it in your deck 2 or 3. (i put 3 because many decks buff df overhigh)

[card]hypnotic melody[/card] I suggest about 2-3 ... to make one shot combo and get chain

[card]Grand Hunt[/card] put 2 card.. although u have distracted and hypnotic melody, about simple reduce df should have in your deck

then The "elfine bow" and "ivory bow" for me, I put 2 for each

hibernation only 1.. to muck make junk in your hand.

quickdraw definitely 3

precision shot no more than 2.

something like this the other cards up to situation.

Others have commented that [card]Distracted[/card] is "slow".  Judging by their context, I presume they were referring to the time between the turn the card is deployed and the turn the card is activated.  Is my guess correct?  The description on the card says nothing that would lead me to suspect its effect would be anything other than immediate...

distracted is slow because it doesnt activate immediately that's all

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Anihilate

Solarian

Inscription : 08-09-2010

Messages : 744

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

Also, If you use Ivory bow against an opponent with no magic poison, it gives you attack -2. Using Ivory bow+ card, then using Ivory bow(no poison on the enemy)+ Elfine bow, will knock off the atk-2, ensure 5 magic damage(before defenses) and possibly chip another character to death.

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Lemant

Campeur

Inscription : 20-12-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

Also, If you use Ivory bow against an opponent with no magic poison, it gives you attack -2. Using Ivory bow+ card, then using Ivory bow(no poison on the enemy)+ Elfine bow, will knock off the atk-2, ensure 5 magic damage(before defenses) and possibly chip another character to death.

At first, I thought the deck, as proposed by Sereaphim (Post #5), was nice.  But as I thought more about it, the less sense it made.  I suspect it's probably due to my lack of knowledge rather than inherent flaw (if any) in his deck design.

Here's a scenario:

------------------------------------------------------
Round 1 (Turns 1, 2, & 3):  Luckily I manage to draw [card]Ivory Bow[/card] card for all three of my characters and the 1st three turns are spent equipping them.  Unfortunately for me, my opponent is using the typical Kotoba trio.  Their naturally high defense means I've barely managed to scratch them, if at all.

Round 2 (Turns 4, 5, & 6):  The three characters, who are now each equipped with the bow, proceed to inflict [card]Magic Poison[/card] on my opponents with the innate ability of the [card]Ivory Bow[/card]. My opponents are now poisoned, and have just started losing about 3-4 health per turn (or is that "per fight" instead?  Do they both mean the same thing?).  In the meantime, my opponents have already delivered unarmed blow from Round 1 and I received HUGE damage to ALL of my characters because my opponents were duel-wielding sword.

At the end of Round 2, my characters with low health (Chestnut and Ydiane) are already dead and Melissandre is near death.  While I have just armed them with bows and had begun to damage their targets, my opponents have already managed to kill off two of my characters and Melissandre isn't going to last another turn.
------------------------------------------------------

That's the forecast I see.  It's depressing.  It doesn't help the fact that all three of my characters were subject to -2 Attack penalty due to their targets being initially not poisoned.  So I fail to see just how Sap Heart warrior deck stands a chance against Kotoba.  Sap Heart decks are popular and are praised for their ability to defeat most of the decks out there (at least according to Eredan wiki description) so my only conclusion is that my understanding of the game mechanics must be seriously flawed.

Would someone care to make some sense out of all this?

LenardCzar

Habitant de Guem

Inscription : 18-12-2010

Messages : 158

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

Round 1 (Turns 1, 2, & 3):  Luckily I manage to draw [card]Ivory Bow[/card] card for all three of my characters and the 1st three turns are spent equipping them.  Unfortunately for me, my opponent is using the typical Kotoba trio.  Their naturally high defense means I've barely managed to scratch them, if at all.

Round 2 (Turns 4, 5, & 6):  The three characters, who are now each equipped with the bow, proceed to inflict [card]Magic Poison[/card] on my opponents with the innate ability of the [card]Ivory Bow[/card]. My opponents are now poisoned, and have just started losing about 3-4 health per turn (or is that "per fight" instead?  Do they both mean the same thing?).  In the meantime, my opponents have already delivered unarmed blow from Round 1 and I received HUGE damage to ALL of my characters because my opponents were duel-wielding sword.

At the end of Round 2, my characters with low health (Chestnut and Ydiane) are already dead and Melissandre is near death.  While I have just armed them with bows and had begun to damage their targets, my opponents have already managed to kill off two of my characters and Melissandre isn't going to last another turn.
------------------------------------------------------

That's the forecast I see.  It's depressing.  It doesn't help the fact that all three of my characters were subject to -2 Attack penalty due to their targets being initially not poisoned.  So I fail to see just how Sap Heart warrior deck stands a chance against Kotoba.  Sap Heart decks are popular and are praised for their ability to defeat most of the decks out there (at least according to Eredan wiki description) so my only conclusion is that my understanding of the game mechanics must be seriously flawed.

Would someone care to make some sense out of all this?

in turn 1, if you used melissandre and you chained  hypnotic melody to  ivory bow,:
she will deal 3 to 6 physical  damage minus 1 (if the original defense is 4) , the physical damage dealt will be 2 - 5 ,
5 damage from additional attack
and additional 4 magic damage (5 from magic poison minus 1 if the spirit of the opposing character is 1)
so the total damage dealt to the opponent is 12 - 15 -- enough to make the opponent dead in one turn.

Then on turn 2, if ydiane used ivory bow chained to magic poison:
she will deal 4-8 damage - 3 ( if the defense is 3)
she will also deal 2 from additional attack
and will deal 4 from magic poison(from the bow and if the spirit is 1) and another 4 from the magic poison.
so the total damage dealt is 11 - 15 -- also enough to make the opponent dead in one turn.

and in turn 3, chestnut chained ivory bow to elfine bow:
she will deal a total of 7 -11 damage - 3 ( if the defense is 3) = 4- 8
another 5  physical damage - 3  = 2
and 5 magic damage from magic poison
the total damage dealt is 6 - 10 (2-2 + 4-6)  damage to one character if it is the only character alive,
3- 5 (4-8 divided by 2)damage to each character if one of them is dead (enough to leave 1 character alive),
and 1 - 2 (6-10 divided by 3) damage, if they are all alive (enough to kill 1 or 2 leaving 1 alive)
and 5 from magic poison.

in round 2, you can kill the enemy with possibly 1 or 2 characters alive.

Dernière modification par LenardCzar (27-12-2011 15:18:12)

Lemant

Campeur

Inscription : 20-12-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

in turn 1, if you used melissandre and you chained  hypnotic melody to  ivory bow,:
she will deal 3 to 6 physical  damage minus 1 (if the original defense is 4) , the physical damage dealt will be 2 - 5 ,
5 damage from additional attack
and additional 4 magic damage (5 from magic poison minus 1 if the spirit of the opposing character is 1)
so the total damage dealt to the opponent is 12 - 15 -- enough to make the opponent dead in one turn.

Ah, I see.  The mistake in my simulation was trying to chain [card]Hypnotic Melody[/card] to an [card]Ivory Bow[/card] instead of vice versa.  Apparently, the order DOES matter here.

Then on turn 2, if ydiane used ivory bow chained to magic poison:
she will deal 4-8 damage - 3 ( if the defense is 3)
she will also deal 2 from additional attack
and will deal 4 from magic poison(from the bow and if the spirit is 1) and another 4 from the magic poison.
so the total damage dealt is 11 - 15 -- also enough to make the opponent dead in one turn.

Ydiane, as a pure warrior, cannot use [card]Magic Poison[/card] card which is exclusive to the Sap Heart mage class.  I agree that [card]Ivory Bow[/card] on [card]Ydiane[/card] will allow her to chain, but the 2nd card CANNOT be used by a warrior because only a mage can use it.  On the other hand, Ydiane can use the innate ability of Ivory Bow to inflict Magic Poison status on her target.  But doing so will incur -2 Attack penalty because her target wouldn't be poisoned as of yet.

and in turn 3, chestnut chained ivory bow to elfine bow:
she will deal a total of 7 -11 damage - 3 ( if the defense is 3) = 4- 8
another 5  physical damage - 3  = 2
and 5 magic damage from magic poison
the total damage dealt is 6 - 10 (2-2 + 4-6)  damage to one character if it is the only character alive,
3- 5 (4-8 divided by 2)damage to each character if one of them is dead (enough to leave 1 character alive),
and 1 - 2 (6-10 divided by 3) damage, if they are all alive (enough to kill 1 or 2 leaving 1 alive)
and 5 from magic poison.

in round 2, you can kill the enemy with possibly 1 or 2 characters alive.

IMPOSSIBLE.  [card]Ivory Bow[/card] is a two-handed weapon.  Regardless of whether [card]Chestnut[/card] gains chain attack with a bow or not is irrelevant.  Innate ability of [card]Chestnut[/card] allows her to chain another card to [card]Ivory Bow[/card] ... either an action card or an item card, or one-handed weapon card, but NOT two-handed weapon card because both of her hands are already occupied wielding the bow.  Although I have no Sap Heart deck to test this, I sense that [card]Chestnut[/card] CANNOT use [card]Ivory Bow[/card] & [card]Elfine Bow[/card] in the same turn.

I think I am correct with a lot of my predictions and my original forecast of this deck still stands.  It'll do terribly against high defense decks and the Magic Poison damage from those bows will be too slow to be effective.

If I am wrong, please point out where my error(s) are.  I want to understand this game.

Dernière modification par Lemant (27-12-2011 16:55:26)

IsawaAgawa

Campeur

Inscription : 23-08-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

I sense that Chestnut CANNOT use Ivory Bow & Elfine Bow in the same turn.

Wrong, she can chain anything after a bow or dagger. The first bow will just be discarded.

Lemant

Campeur

Inscription : 20-12-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

I sense that Chestnut CANNOT use Ivory Bow & Elfine Bow in the same turn.

Wrong, she can chain anything after a bow or dagger. The first bow will just be discarded.

Ah, I see.  Thank you for the info.  Now I will have to reread his post to examine the details of calculations.

jackal19

Gardien

Lieu : SDM

Inscription : 10-12-2010

Messages : 1 191

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

umm ydiane can use magic poison because shes part nature guemlite so chaining it with ivory bow will double the magic poison on the enemy

Dernière modification par jackal19 (27-12-2011 17:45:13)

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Lemant

Campeur

Inscription : 20-12-2011

Messages : 59

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

umm ydiane can use magic poison because shes part nature guemlite so chaining it with ivory bow will double the magic poison on the enemy

Sigh.  Looks like I will have to go back to reading the rules...

karnoki

Habitant de Guem

Inscription : 20-11-2011

Messages : 216

Re : Building a Sap Heart Deck Around Ivory Bow

Elfine deck.. So fun

[card]distracted[/card]    So important card.. sometimes may be it's useless however i suggest put it in your deck 2 or 3. (i put 3 because many decks buff df overhigh)

[card]hypnotic melody[/card] I suggest about 2-3 ... to make one shot combo and get chain

[card]Grand Hunt[/card] put 2 card.. although u have distracted and hypnotic melody, about simple reduce df should have in your deck

then The "elfine bow" and "ivory bow" for me, I put 2 for each

hibernation only 1.. to muck make junk in your hand.

quickdraw definitely 3

precision shot no more than 2.

something like this the other cards up to situation.

Others have commented that [card]Distracted[/card] is "slow".  Judging by their context, I presume they were referring to the time between the turn the card is deployed and the turn the card is activated.  Is my guess correct?  The description on the card says nothing that would lead me to suspect its effect would be anything other than immediate...

like you said.. Distract is so slowwww.. however it's risky if you dont have it... some the pack has stone.. the courtesan with ice barrier... zil mage *0*... ice elf with lucky of icy aura -*-, the weird golem -*- (who think the combo?)....... normally when i play.. about 3 of 7 games.. the distract help me win.. but 4/7 is null = =... if in lv room.. I think it is not need ummmm...