After 3 turns, the game awards XP to you and your characters, as a failsafe in case your opponent isn't playing fair, or disconnects. It's meant to award you with XP for your time, so that if you invest more than about a half a game (most games run 5-6 turns at least), and something bad happens, you still get XP.

The system wasn't meant to be abused so that every 3 minutes, two players can trade wins and double, if not triple, the XP earned by players playing by the intended rules.

Trading wins with another player is fine, even dual leveling is a great idea, so that you can get faster matches and ordered turns to ensure you get bonues. Abusing a game mechanic intended to protect fairplay is stretching correct gaming behaviour. The whole intent (as far as I understand) of banning multiple accounts in the ToS (if you havent seen the sticky yet, be warned) is to prevent this exact game mechanic abuse by a single player. What's the difference between if it's a single, or two players abusing the same mechanic?

It really creates disparity between those that do sit paired for hours doing this versus people who play "fairly".

So here's the questions:

1) Is this a fair mechanic to abuse?

Don't just say "Well, all the big players use it and if I don't, I'll fall behind". That doesn't make it fair, it makes it unbalanced unless everyone abuses the same mechanic. Either you're fine with it, or not - no matter if you abuse it to keep up or not

2) If it isn't fair, how do we stop it?

Currently, here's my thoughtlist on the solutions:
* Limit matchups per hour to a certain number:

Normal matches take 6-10 minutes. Fairplay would dictate that 6-8 matches versus the same player per hour would be the max most people could do against another player. Once you hit that max match in an hour, you are locked from playing against them again until the timer resets.

Pros: Eliminates multi-accounts from abusing as well if they're not caught. Max matches is high enough not to mess with tournaments, or friendly match play.

Cons: Doesn't directly address the issue of 3 in 3 out.

*Limit the amount of times you gain 3 in 3 out fairplay xp in an hour

This is my favorite of the two. In any given hour, limit the amount of times you can get fairplay XP from DCs and quits to a reasonable number....say...3. If you're getting quit against more than 3 times an hour..somethings wrong...it shouldn't happen more than that, unless you're abusing the system...We do it already for low fairplay (you get 0 xp if your fairplay is extremely low until you build it up again)...why can't we do it on both sides?

Pros: Eliminates all abuse of the mechanic. 3 quick matches an hour gives nearly no advantage

Cons: I can't think of any

3) If you feel it's fair, how can you make it so that those not matching up are not at a severe leveling disadvantage?

My only idea:

Make training rooms give better XP, and more games involved.

Training rooms are meant to give extra XP for people randomly pairing up, to give them some leeway versus matchup groups. Given the current landscape though, the 5 games a day aren't enough, and people are falling behind....

Cartel · 01-12-2010 17:46:41

I'm ok with how it currently is.

Dernière modification par Cartel (02-12-2010 17:01:43)

para · 01-12-2010 18:01:11

i think its a good idea, but what happens if you get multiple opponents who disconnect? are those included in your set games per hour?

Rathedan · 01-12-2010 19:04:04

I figure if you do the idea #1, that the set matches verses each player would only count if you gained XP. Its a bit messier than idea #2 because of small things like that. Maybe if you friend match and play fair, playing 5-6 rounds each match, you might get more than 10 matchups if you're real quick also...but the system would stop you even if you were fair. It's why I like #2 better, but I dunno hwo hard either is to implement if people would want them...

bleachman · 02-12-2010 15:35:42

Rathedan a écrit :

*Limit the amount of times you gain 3 in 3 out fairplay xp in an hour
This is my favorite of the two. In any given hour, limit the amount of times you can get fairplay XP from DCs and quits to a reasonable number....say...3. If you're getting quit against more than 3 times an hour..somethings wrong...it shouldn't happen more than that, unless you're abusing the system...We do it already for low fairplay (you get 0 xp if your fairplay is extremely low until you build it up again)...why can't we do it on both sides?
Pros: Eliminates all abuse of the mechanic. 3 quick matches an hour gives nearly no advantage
Cons: I can't think of any

This is win.

I support this 100% as what players, who do this kind of 'gameplay', are doing here is abusive exploitation of a mechanic installed and meant to support those who face an unfortunate circumstance. Giving players exp, should their opponent leave the game or disconnect, is there to help ensure that the non faulty player is still rewarded for his or her effort in the game. It is NOT meant to be used to farm off of eachother just so you can gain a PERSONAL ADVANTAGE over other players.

This is against the Terms of Service: * exploit, distribute or publicly inform other members of any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage

[Sidenote: I realise the irony in this thread showing the exploitation, and technically that being against ToS as well. I would however reconsider the intent behind this post and ask you kindly to consider it Bug-Forum worthy, where such information is not prohibited. This thread is there to help make the game fair for everybody.]

goscar · 03-12-2010 12:52:58

Rathedan a écrit :

*Limit the amount of times you gain 3 in 3 out fairplay xp in an hour
This is my favorite of the two. In any given hour, limit the amount of times you can get fairplay XP from DCs and quits to a reasonable number....say...3. If you're getting quit against more than 3 times an hour..somethings wrong...it shouldn't happen more than that, unless you're abusing the system...We do it already for low fairplay (you get 0 xp if your fairplay is extremely low until you build it up again)...why can't we do it on both sides?
Pros: Eliminates all abuse of the mechanic. 3 quick matches an hour gives nearly no advantage
Cons: I can't think of any

second it! this kinda pwr lvling is should not be happening!

steven_allen · 03-12-2010 15:20:54

I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like the method, don't use it.

para · 04-12-2010 03:13:37

the big deal is all the other players who abuse the system

Charlie_Clark · 04-12-2010 03:36:24

I have mixed feelings on this topic but I'd like to point out that it is most certainly not a violation of the Terms of Service. Clearly this isn't exploiting a MISCUE, ERROR, or BUG. Seriously. Its exploiting an in game RULE. Maybe the terms of service should include that

steven_allen · 04-12-2010 05:58:56

"Well, all the big players use it and if I don't, I'll fall behind". That doesn't make it fair, it makes it unbalanced unless everyone abuses the same mechanic. Either you're fine with it, or not - no matter if you abuse it to keep up or not"

Ok, so what are we supposed to go about the players, like the ones in the video, that have obviously used this "exploit" and have thus climbed to the top of the ranks? Did they just get away with it? That doesn't seem like justice to me. It's a punishment to everyone else for trying, and an award to them. They get to sit at the top of the mountain now, with just a slap of the hand. If you disagree with this type of game play, don't use it.

As for it being unbalanced, it's not like the opportunity isn't available for everyone to use. It's obviously been used for longer than a lot of the people who have commented on this post have been playing. Just because everyone doesn't do something doesn't make in unbalanced. Noz Mages are arguably the most successful deck in the game, but they isn't unfair just because everyone doesn't take advantage of it.

If you don't like a play type, don't go out of your way to get rid of it.

kappa1uk · 04-12-2010 06:02:52

If everyone can do it - wheres the problem?

Now Multi accounts - thats a problem.

Tourney Stallers - thats a problem.

Disconnection every five minutes - thats a problem.

Have to admit however - that i prefer the traditional way of levelling a character.

Anihilate · 04-12-2010 06:03:21

steven_allen a écrit :

"Well, all the big players use it and if I don't, I'll fall behind". That doesn't make it fair, it makes it unbalanced unless everyone abuses the same mechanic. Either you're fine with it, or not - no matter if you abuse it to keep up or not"
Ok, so what are we supposed to go about the players, like the ones in the video, that have obviously used this "exploit" and have thus climbed to the top of the ranks? Did they just get away with it? That doesn't seem like justice to me. It's a punishment to everyone else for trying, and an award to them. They get to sit at the top of the mountain now, with just a slap of the hand. If you disagree with this type of game play, don't use it.
As for it being unbalanced, it's not like the opportunity isn't available for everyone to use. It's obviously been used for longer than a lot of the people who have commented on this post have been playing. Just because everyone doesn't do something doesn't make in unbalanced. Noz Mages are arguably the most successful deck in the game, but they isn't unfair just because everyone doesn't take advantage of it.
If you don't like a play type, don't go out of your way to get rid of it.

^ This

bleachman · 04-12-2010 10:14:17

Charlie_Clark a écrit :

I have mixed feelings on this topic but I'd like to point out that it is most certainly not a violation of the Terms of Service. Clearly this isn't exploiting a MISCUE, ERROR, or BUG. Seriously. Its exploiting an in game RULE. Maybe the terms of service should include that

It is a faulty mistake on side of the developers who introduced the exp gaining system for those who face those unfortunate circumstances. People are using the devs ignorance to misuse the system for personal gain. This is against ToS.

steven_allen a écrit :

Ok, so what are we supposed to go about the players, like the ones in the video, that have obviously used this "exploit" and have thus climbed to the top of the ranks? Did they just get away with it? That doesn't seem like justice to me. It's a punishment to everyone else for trying, and an award to them. They get to sit at the top of the mountain now, with just a slap of the hand. If you disagree with this type of game play, don't use it.

Of course it would be difficult to punish players belated for these actions. I personally believe a lot of the players, including the ones who exploit the miscue in question here, did work their asses off to gain what they have, be it by exploiting this 3er drop out system, multiaccounting or playing the game as it is intended. Punishing players for that would be a bad move in my opinion.

It is not really a question about justice, nor do I believe anybody wishes to persecute players who used this method for personal gain. It would be best to prevent such exploits and abuses instead for the future. This will balance things out eventually over time and make the game fair for everybody.

Rathedan · 04-12-2010 11:22:42

A) I don't use the gameplay mechanic, correct. At the same time, if things remain the same, I'm not going to gripe too hard either. I'm just bringing it up to try and attain some fairplay level amongst the playerbase.

B) I'm not going out of my way to get rid of it. The entire issue erupts from the multi account issue, really. People were playing 2 accounts to keep up, breaching the ToS to play themselves, because obviously, there wasn't the same opportunity to them. They felt they were falling behind to players matching up and doing 3 in/out, and were forced into multi-ing. Whether it be to time-zones, lack of consistent play time (can't play for an hour straight to matchup etc), people can't always find partners...so they played themselves to abuse the same mechanic, going 3 in/out.

Not everyone can do it. That argument really has no base.

Someone can't just run into the english chat and ask "Oh hey, mind evoing with me for one fight now, one fight in 10-15 minutes, and another two in an hour? That's the only time I can allot right now..." Availibity makes it hard.
You can't go in at 8am EST and find someone to Evo with either. Or Midnight PST. Your playtime might make is hard.
I've seen people in there asking everyone who comes in if they can matchplay too, without anyone agreeing to. How close you know people is another hurdle.

So yes, the ability for everyone to is there. The opportunity, is not.

C) I don't think necessarily that it has to be gotten rid of, but if people don't play that way, they become at a disadvantage right now. Which can become frustrating, and maybe not retain players. I like a larger playerbase. Which, if the mechanic stays, there should at least be an offset to not punish players who can't sit for multiple games in a row. Hence the multipart original post, trying to be for or against keeping it.

I'm not advocating necessarily for an abolishment, but more a rectification that allows for an even playing field. Fairness to some degree.

Cartel · 04-12-2010 18:34:42

You bringing this topic up explicitly contradicts your reasoning in point A. Now more players will do it than before because you've informed them on how it's done. You are going out of your way to get rid of it or you wouldn't have made this post, so what you said in B is invalid. In C you say it doesn't have to be gotten rid of but that is exactly what your intention was when you made this post a few days ago. You say that players who don't use the system have a disadvantage but I say that players who don't spend money have a much larger one. Should we get rid of feez due to the fact that majority of players don't spend money cause, while they have the abililty, the opportunity is not there or vice-versa? The player base will not flucuate at all due to this type of play. If anything, it's gone up a ton in the last few weeks.

Anihilate · 04-12-2010 23:40:46

Even if you were to get rid of that mechanic, the community would shrink. What do you think happens if you have no way to level but to lose countless times to people who use fully leveled decks in the level rooms?

"If I get pounded by a Zil, Shadow, Telendar only 160 more times I get a level :DD"

And without a way to train cards at a decent pace at higher levels, you just get floaters.

Samsari · 04-12-2010 23:51:57

Anihilate a écrit :

Even if you were to get rid of that mechanic, the community would shrink. What do you think happens if you have no way to level but to lose countless times to people who use fully leveled decks in the level rooms?
"If I get pounded by a Zil, Shadow, Telendar only 160 more times I get a level :DD"
And without a way to train cards at a decent pace at higher levels, you just get floaters.

Read:

Rathedan a écrit :

3) If you feel it's fair, how can you make it so that those not matching up are not at a severe leveling disadvantage?
My only idea:
Make training rooms give better XP, and more games involved.
Training rooms are meant to give extra XP for people randomly pairing up, to give them some leeway versus matchup groups. Given the current landscape though, the 5 games a day aren't enough, and people are falling behind....

Anihilate · 05-12-2010 00:00:05

Still isn't enough. Its miniscule unless you teach people how to follow order's for exp. And having the training room with ANY limit on games is a waste. Spend the same amount of time for 5 more exp than you would have gotten in a regular room. Unless you take the limit off the training room all together, the net gain is still in the crapper compared to playing against people who you know WILL respect the order bonuses and WON'T try to gimp you at every turn. Even in the training room people play as if they're trying to win a tournament, and usually do everything in their power to prevent you from getting much.

Samsari · 05-12-2010 01:13:01

Anihilate a écrit :

Still isn't enough. Its miniscule unless you teach people how to follow order's for exp. And having the training room with ANY limit on games is a waste. Spend the same amount of time for 5 more exp than you would have gotten in a regular room. Unless you take the limit off the training room all together, the net gain is still in the crapper compared to playing against people who you know WILL respect the order bonuses and WON'T try to gimp you at every turn. Even in the training room people play as if they're trying to win a tournament, and usually do everything in their power to prevent you from getting much.

If they make it to give you something like +10 points from training then the 1-3 points from orders would not be such a big matter.

Falanin · 05-12-2010 01:28:31

I notice that no one here is admitting to using the "3 and out" method of levelling characters. Well, I do. So do a lot of the folks who aren't mentioning it. Here is why:

The cards that I need to be competitive are extremely expensive. For example: I currently need to buy a Fireball. This is an uncommon that runs between 24 and 30 thousand crystal.

There are two main ways I could deal with this:

1. I could buy feez... except I can't, as I have very little discretionary income to allot to Eredan. I can barely afford enough to keep myself able to sell cards in the market, and those packs aren't giving me a whole lot of good cards to sell... between four hundred crystal and fifteen thousand crystal a month. With what I can afford, I could get my fireball--which is only ONE of the cards I need--in two months, if I'm lucky.

2. I could play games to earn crystal, both directly and by selling off characters I've levelled.

2a. Playing normally, I can earn between one thousand and fifteen hundred crystal per day... if I play for several hours per day. This is generally lower if I'm levelling up characters to sell, since I don't win as much. So, without selling off levelled characters, I could buy my fireball in maybe two or three weeks.

2b. Selling off levelled characters is a lot harder to give an estimate on, since they vary wildly in price, and have significant differences in how expensive they are to level. Levelling characters also presents a problem, since people in the levelling rooms actively try to screw up my turn bonuses so they can win the game, and since using under-levelled characters is a great way to lose anyway due to their lower stats. Not practical.

I believe that only way to make the crystal grind bearable for the player that has more time and dedication than money is to work with a partner. The three and out method is simply the most efficient way of doing that. Anyone can do it, all it takes is time and a partner.

There will always be a best way to grind. There will always be methods of power-levelling available to those who want to put in the effort to learn them. Are they necessary to be competitive? No. You can buy your way there with feez, or you can take the slow approach and actually spend your time enjoying the game.

Treating a levelling method as though it were some sort of bug or exploit is in my opinion both useless and counterproductive. If you take away the ways a player with dedication and time can use his expertise to succeed at this game, you make the game a poorer experience.

Doing three and out evo isn't all that fun. It DOES give an advantage to those who put a lot of time and effort into it... but I believe that that is appropriate. If you want to sacrifice your fun for a competitive edge, good for you. You've worked for it, you should get something.

Thanks for listening.

Dernière modification par Falanin (05-12-2010 01:45:53)

Charlie_Clark · 05-12-2010 05:44:22

bleachman a écrit :

Charlie_Clark a écrit :
I have mixed feelings on this topic but I'd like to point out that it is most certainly not a violation of the Terms of Service. Clearly this isn't exploiting a MISCUE, ERROR, or BUG. Seriously. Its exploiting an in game RULE. Maybe the terms of service should include that
It is a faulty mistake on side of the developers who introduced the exp gaining system for those who face those unfortunate circumstances. People are using the devs ignorance to misuse the system for personal gain. This is against ToS.

I missed the part in the ToS that mentioned ignorance

bleachman · 05-12-2010 05:52:25

Charlie_Clark a écrit :

bleachman a écrit :
Charlie_Clark a écrit :
I have mixed feelings on this topic but I'd like to point out that it is most certainly not a violation of the Terms of Service. Clearly this isn't exploiting a MISCUE, ERROR, or BUG. Seriously. Its exploiting an in game RULE. Maybe the terms of service should include that
It is a faulty mistake on side of the developers who introduced the exp gaining system for those who face those unfortunate circumstances. People are using the devs ignorance to misuse the system for personal gain. This is against ToS.
I missed the part in the ToS that mentioned ignorance

Miscue~

Anihilate · 05-12-2010 05:59:47

Samsari a écrit :

Anihilate a écrit :
Still isn't enough. Its miniscule unless you teach people how to follow order's for exp. And having the training room with ANY limit on games is a waste. Spend the same amount of time for 5 more exp than you would have gotten in a regular room. Unless you take the limit off the training room all together, the net gain is still in the crapper compared to playing against people who you know WILL respect the order bonuses and WON'T try to gimp you at every turn. Even in the training room people play as if they're trying to win a tournament, and usually do everything in their power to prevent you from getting much.
If they make it to give you something like +10 points from training then the 1-3 points from orders would not be such a big matter.

See, then the training room would be worth something. 50 free exp a day is better than 5, especially when you have to level past 2. Still, It's a grind.

bleachman · 05-12-2010 06:32:26

Anihilate a écrit :

Samsari a écrit :
Anihilate a écrit :
Still isn't enough. Its miniscule unless you teach people how to follow order's for exp. And having the training room with ANY limit on games is a waste. Spend the same amount of time for 5 more exp than you would have gotten in a regular room. Unless you take the limit off the training room all together, the net gain is still in the crapper compared to playing against people who you know WILL respect the order bonuses and WON'T try to gimp you at every turn. Even in the training room people play as if they're trying to win a tournament, and usually do everything in their power to prevent you from getting much.
If they make it to give you something like +10 points from training then the 1-3 points from orders would not be such a big matter.
See, then the training room would be worth something. 50 free exp a day is better than 5, especially when you have to level past 2. Still, It's a grind.

Training characters is evidently always a grind. Regardless of how you do it. lol

I do agree, there should be better and more easier ways to level at least characters. More EXP and TR games would be a good step forward.

You can also always meet up with a friend and make sure you both activate eachother's turn orders. I used to do that when I first started out and didn't have the cards I own today. Now I mostly do random battles to trophy points and some exp and TR sessions to train lower leveled characters that do not stand a chance in the level rooms.

steven_allen · 05-12-2010 06:54:53

I think Falanin really hit the nail on the head. Anything that wasn't mentioned before was covered in his post.

Eredan's World

Annonce

#1 01-12-2010 16:38:00

Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#2 01-12-2010 17:46:41

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#3 01-12-2010 18:01:11

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#4 01-12-2010 19:04:04

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#5 02-12-2010 15:35:42

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#6 03-12-2010 12:52:58

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#7 03-12-2010 15:20:54

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#8 04-12-2010 03:13:37

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#9 04-12-2010 03:36:24

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#10 04-12-2010 05:58:56

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#11 04-12-2010 06:02:52

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#12 04-12-2010 06:03:21

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#13 04-12-2010 10:14:17

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#14 04-12-2010 11:22:42

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#15 04-12-2010 18:34:42

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#16 04-12-2010 23:40:46

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#17 04-12-2010 23:51:57

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#18 05-12-2010 00:00:05

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#19 05-12-2010 01:13:01

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#20 05-12-2010 01:28:31

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#21 05-12-2010 05:44:22

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#22 05-12-2010 05:52:25

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#23 05-12-2010 05:59:47

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#24 05-12-2010 06:32:26

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

#25 05-12-2010 06:54:53

Re : Limiting 3 in, 3 out Leveling abuse.

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